RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[cupcakesnake]

Part 1
Part 2

*Do not bait or troll by calling fans of other players names, please.*

[Djoker]

According to PBPstats, LeBron went 23 of 35 on rim FGs. Since he went 32 of 90 overall in the series, that means that he shot 9 of 55 on shots that weren’t at the rim. Four of those were threes, so that is an effective FG% of 20% on shots that weren’t at the rim, in the 2007 Finals. Genuinely just absolutely awful. And the Spurs were giving him those shots, rather than them being shots with people draped all over him. The Spurs exposed an absolutely gaping flaw in LeBron’s game. He never entirely fixed it, though this was probably the problem at its worst.

The Cavs had a woeful -3.2 rORtg in that series.

And the Spurs always had a strategy to just give Lebron the outside shot. Even in the 2014 Finals, when he was on fire from 3pt range (IIRC like 55%) Pop was happy to concede those shots. Why?!? Because it kept Lebron away from the rim and when he doesn't get to the rim, he doesn't collapse the defense which gives open shots to all the shooters. Lebron's creation volume was thus drastically reduced against the Spurs as a result.

[lessthanjake]

According to PBPstats, LeBron went 23 of 35 on rim FGs. Since he went 32 of 90 overall in the series, that means that he shot 9 of 55 on shots that weren’t at the rim. Four of those were threes, so that is an effective FG% of 20% on shots that weren’t at the rim, in the 2007 Finals. Genuinely just absolutely awful. And the Spurs were giving him those shots, rather than them being shots with people draped all over him. The Spurs exposed an absolutely gaping flaw in LeBron’s game. He never entirely fixed it, though this was probably the problem at its worst.

The Cavs had a woeful -3.2 rORtg in that series.

And the Spurs always had a strategy to just give Lebron the outside shot. Even in the 2014 Finals, when he was on fire from 3pt range (IIRC like 55%) Pop was happy to concede those shots. Why?!? Because it kept Lebron away from the rim and when he doesn't get to the rim, he doesn't collapse the defense which gives open shots to all the shooters. Lebron's creation volume was thus drastically reduced against the Spurs as a result.

Yup. LeBron is a streaky shooter, so when his shot is on he can be unstoppable (see, for example, the 2009 playoffs). But he’s not actually a very good shooter overall, so him being “on” isn’t the norm, and playing him like this was successful. With more space in later years (i.e. probably like second-stint CLE onwards), I will say it started to become harder to keep him away from the rim, which made this strategy harder to successfully use.

[AlexanderRight]

And that's one of the biggest differences that sets MJ apart. We never saw him compromised as a player. There was never a time we looked at him and thought "he should have done more" or that he let his team down. He averaged 40ppg in the playoffs on his rookie contract against the Larry Bird Celtics, arguably the best team ever.

We've seen Lebron under perform in the playoffs numerous times including his first two Finals. For whatever reason, whether it was the competition or the pressure, the moment was just too big for him. MJ never even got outplayed in a single series. Anyone that thinks that isn't a HUGE factor when talking about the greatest player in history, already has their mind made up.

[FreeBird23]

Part 3, same obvious answer : MJ

[MavsDirk41]

The guy with 2 3 peats

[lessthanjake]

The guy with 2 3 peats

He’s about to have another three-peat: This time, a three-peat of victories in “RGM GOAT Debate Thread” votes.

[VanWest82]

According to PBPstats, LeBron went 23 of 35 on rim FGs. Since he went 32 of 90 overall in the series, that means that he shot 9 of 55 on shots that weren’t at the rim. Four of those were threes, so that is an effective FG% of 20% on shots that weren’t at the rim, in the 2007 Finals. Genuinely just absolutely awful. And the Spurs were giving him those shots, rather than them being shots with people draped all over him. The Spurs exposed an absolutely gaping flaw in LeBron’s game. He never entirely fixed it, though this was probably the problem at its worst.

The Cavs had a woeful -3.2 rORtg in that series.

And the Spurs always had a strategy to just give Lebron the outside shot. Even in the 2014 Finals, when he was on fire from 3pt range (IIRC like 55%) Pop was happy to concede those shots. Why?!? Because it kept Lebron away from the rim and when he doesn't get to the rim, he doesn't collapse the defense which gives open shots to all the shooters. Lebron's creation volume was thus drastically reduced against the Spurs as a result.

Yup. LeBron is a streaky shooter, so when his shot is on he can be unstoppable (see, for example, the 2009 playoffs). But he’s not actually a very good shooter overall, so him being “on” isn’t the norm, and playing him like this was successful. With more space in later years (i.e. second-stint CLE onwards), I will say it started to become harder to keep him away from the rim, which made this strategy harder to successfully use.

Lebron playing the second half of his career without having to face a HOF level defensive big is one of the more interesting what ifs. And No, 6'6 Draymond doesn't count.

With the skill evolution having finally transferred to bigs, we should see a rise in big players that can stay on the floor longer (and protect the rim). Wemby is an obvious example here but he's a freak. Even just having more guys like Chet and Myles Turner and healthy Porzingis should make it harder for future iterations of new age Lebron-types (e.g. Giannis) to dominate in the way we saw from 2015-current.

NBA also swung very hard toward offensive-oriented officiating from mid 2010s-current which one might also expect to correct back. Lots went in the direction of the relentless driver / play maker who could finish at the rim but had more limited skill set outside the paint. Others would make similar claims about the 90s being in Jordan's favour, but it's worth pointing out imo.

[SlimShady83]

The guy with 2 3 peats

He’s about to have another three-peat: This time, a three-peat of victories in “RGM GOAT Debate Thread” votes.

if that's not a goat I don't know what is

[MavsDirk41]

The guy with 2 3 peats

He’s about to have another three-peat: This time, a three-peat of victories in “RGM GOAT Debate Thread” votes.

Yup no doubt. I think there are 4 goat candidates but Jordan is the best of the all time greats.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[GiggitySmalls]

Jordan

/thread

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[LBJKB24MJ23]

i love Lebron i love Jordan. today I go with Jordan. tomorrow Lebron. shrugs

[bledredwine]

And that's one of the biggest differences that sets MJ apart. We never saw him compromised as a player. There was never a time we looked at him and thought "he should have done more" or that he let his team down. He averaged 40ppg in the playoffs on his rookie contract against the Larry Bird Celtics, arguably the best team ever.

We've seen Lebron under perform in the playoffs numerous times including his first two Finals. For whatever reason, whether it was the competition or the pressure, the moment was just too big for him. MJ never even got outplayed in a single series. Anyone that thinks that isn't a HUGE factor when talking about the greatest player in history, already has their mind made up.

All of Ray Allen, Mugsy Bogues, KD, and BJ Armstrong said this when comparing the two (among others).

Jordan had no holes in his game. Reggie said when analyzing to find a “tell” on MJ like everyone, “what was his shooting percentage from the elbow?” great. “inside?” great etc. He could pass, rebound, defense goes without saying. Finals three point percentage is great, as was his percentage when he actually took threes instead of wild buzzer beaters only like early career. Thats his weakness.

We’ve seen significant vulnerabilities in almost all of the other players listed.

[SHAQ32]

Could be MJ. Could be Kareem. Could be Russell. Could even be Wilt.

Definitely not LeBron.

[SHAQ32]

Read on Twitter

Definitely in the minority, but I always thought 2001 was Peak Kobe.

[NyKnicks1714]

i love Lebron i love Jordan. today I go with Jordan. tomorrow Lebron. shrugs

Excuse me, this thread is about posting the same arguments over and over and everyone acting like their opinion is fact. We'll have none of this.

[Himothy Duncan]

The guy who won during an expansion heavy period dominated by slow bigs and whose main perimeter competition were Reggie Miller and Jeff Hornack.

[Rust_Cohle]

The guy who won during an expansion heavy period dominated by slow bigs and whose main perimeter competition were Reggie Miller and Jeff Hornack.

As oppose to the guy who played in a horrifically bad eastern conference getting fodder like DeMar DeRozan in the ECF