Why did Wilt Chamberlain's defensive impact seem so underwhelming at times?

[Mean_Streets]

It seemed like he played all-time great tier defense in '67, '68 and his last two seasons with the Lakers, but then you have data like this.

1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg

Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg

1968 Lakers (without Wilt): #7 defense ( DRTG -0.2 worse than league average)
1969 Lakers: #8 defense ( DRTG +0.6 better than league average)
1970 Lakers (without Wilt): #4 defense (DRTG +1.6 better than league average)
1971 Lakers: #8 defense: (DRTG +1.2 better than league average)

Wilt only slightly improves their defense when he arrives in 1969. The Lakers had their best defensive team in that 4 year period in 1970 when Wilt missed 70 games that season.

Wilt returned to the playoffs in 1970 and the Lakers DRTG during that postseason run was -0.4 worse than league average.

[UcanUwill]

I have no idea since it was before my time, but I wonder how effective and engaged guy can be as defender full game, when he averages like 47 minutes per game during the season

[tsherkin]

I think the large problem here is that he was OFF the court so little that there's limited reliable sample to produce ON/OFF data. He had a season where he played 48.5 mpg, remember? Even with LA, he was playing 42-45 mpg the entire time.

What are you going to do with 300 minutes of OFF data?

EDIT: Thanks, og. xD

[Yoshun]

I'm a little skeptical of a lot of the data from that time period.

[WiggOuts]

Wilt was more about the "look what I can do" and "be amazed by me" than the actual game itself. He chased stats over wins

[og15]

I think the large problem here is that he was OFF the court so much that there's limited reliable sample to produce ON/OFF data. He had a season where he played 48.5 mpg, remember? Even with LA, he was playing 42-45 mpg the entire time.

What are you going to do with 300 minutes of OFF data?

I know you meant so little, but yea, not much off data when a guy plays all game

[tsherkin]

I think the large problem here is that he was OFF the court so much that there's limited reliable sample to produce ON/OFF data. He had a season where he played 48.5 mpg, remember? Even with LA, he was playing 42-45 mpg the entire time.

What are you going to do with 300 minutes of OFF data?

I know you meant so little, but yea, not much off data when a guy plays all game

Hah! Yes, so I did. Thanks for catching that, I'll edit. xD

[Mean_Streets]

I'm a little skeptical of a lot of the data from that time period.

[Sixers in 4]

He expanded so much effort on offense also the advanced data from that time period is suspect.

[Dan Z]

Watch on YouTube

[bkkrh]

I think the large problem here is that he was OFF the court so much that there's limited reliable sample to produce ON/OFF data. He had a season where he played 48.5 mpg, remember? Even with LA, he was playing 42-45 mpg the entire time.

What are you going to do with 300 minutes of OFF data?

I know you meant so little, but yea, not much off data when a guy plays all game

And very likely he will then be on the bench in garbage time, which makes it even less informative.

[DCasey91]

Because Wilt was frankly an average mover considering in compared to Shaq. Hes a better defender holistically but man his footwork left alot to be desired. And don't get me started on era it was 1000% his footwork from the film I've watched.
Now footwork meaning he didn't shuffle but was more stop and start. Because he was so overarching on athletic ability he got away with it. It's a fundemental thing.

Jones, West, Havlicek, Russell, Thurmond, Baylor, Petit, Oscar were all great practioners of movement. It's even more noticeable on offense too btw.

[Yoshun]

I'm a little skeptical of a lot of the data from that time period.

The NBA didn't keep track of total possessions during that time period. ORTG and DRTG from that era are based on best guesses taken from other data.

Maybe you can still infer something from relative data but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Mean_Streets]

I'm a little skeptical of a lot of the data from that time period.

The NBA didn't keep track of total possessions during that time period. ORTG and DRTG from that era are based on best guesses taken from other data.

Maybe you can still infer something from relative data but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

Yes, I understand. But overall the DRTG from that era seems about right. I say this because the Celtics had the #1 DRTG pretty much every season during Russell's time there, and historians always talk about how dominant that team was on the defensive end. Another clue is Wilt missing out on the All-Defensive Team in '69 & '71, when the Lakers DRTG was kind of average in both years, then making First Team in '72 & '73 when the Lakers DRTG was one of the best in the league.

You also see a noticeable increase in Boston's DRTG the moment Russell retires. Went from 89.1 in 1969 to 98.0 in 1970. His impact was missed.

[kcktiny]

1965
Warriors full season: 87.7 ORtg, 92.8 DRtg
Warriors with Wilt: 90.3 ORtg, 94.4 DRtg
Warriors without Wilt: 86.2 ORtg, 92.3 DRtg

Sixers full season: 94.1 ORtg, 94.2 DRtg
Sixers with Wilt: 94.7 ORtg, 94.5 DRtg
Sixers without Wilt: 93.5 ORtg, 93.9 DRtg

Do you realize how completely inane it is to site on/off data for a player who in his career played 46 min/g? You are comparing two sets of data where one is more than twenty times larger than the other.

Google what the phrase "statistically significant" means.

I wonder how effective and engaged guy can be as defender full game, when he averages like 47 minutes per game during the season

Bill Russell played 42 min/g in his career, five seasons of 44-45 min/g. Nate Thurmond 41 min/g his first 11 seasons in the league, five seasons of 43-45 min/g. How were they as defenders?

Wilt was more about the "look what I can do" and "be amazed by me" than the actual game itself. He chased stats over wins

He did what? He "chased stats over wins"??

Do you even know who Wilt Chamberlain was? In the seasons he played for 1 team and did not miss games due to injury - 12 seasons (59-60 to 63-64, 65-66 to 68-69, 70-71 to 72-73) - the team he played for won 66.3% of their games in the regular season.

Those 12 seasons the only team to win a higher percentage of their games was Boston. So the teams Wilt played for won more games than all other single teams except the Celtics over a dozen years.

[Ol Roy]

Regarding 1965, it's worth asking whether Nate Thurmond shouldered the rim protection responsibilities while Wilt was off the court. I'd guess he did, but I don't know.

[Mean_Streets]

Wilt was traded that year, those numbers reflect when he was on the team and after he was traded.

[JonFromVA]

I'm a little skeptical of a lot of the data from that time period.

The NBA didn't keep track of total possessions during that time period. ORTG and DRTG from that era are based on best guesses taken from other data.

Maybe you can still infer something from relative data but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

They're pretty awful estimates even in modern times, but DRTG should love Wilt's rebounds since it just takes the team's DRTG and divvies it up based on defensive box score stats like rebounds, blocks, and steals. I suppose the huge minutes he played does water those stats down as we've seen when normalizing his scoring.

[Yoshun]

The NBA didn't keep track of total possessions during that time period. ORTG and DRTG from that era are based on best guesses taken from other data.

Maybe you can still infer something from relative data but it needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

They're pretty awful estimates even in modern times, but DRTG should love Wilt's rebounds since it just takes the team's DRTG and divvies it up based on defensive box score stats like rebounds, blocks, and steals. I suppose the huge minutes he played does water those stats down as we've seen when normalizing his scoring.

They also didn't keep track of steals or blocks. Advanced stats from that era are just ough. That doesn't mean we can't talk about them, but minor differences from one year to another are probably not going to tell you much.

I've seen a few threads over the years do a solid job of estimating and discussing Wilt.

[Optimus_Steel]

Trying to evaluate a legacy player using modern day stats when stats were not recorded the same way back then as it is now it’s a losing errand.