2001 Lakers V 1996 Bulls but with Peak Kobe

[mdonnelly1989]

Whenever you think Peak Kobe but I don't think most people believe its 2001, and probably somewhere between 05-10 when he matured.

[ropjhk]

Peak Kobe might actually be a detriment in some ways to the 2001 Lakers. If he butted heads with Shaq and went rogue on him then you could have another 2004 situation.

[Yank3525]

Peak Kobe might actually be a detriment in some ways to the 2001 Lakers. If he butted heads with Shaq and went rogue on him then you could have another 2004 situation.

2001 Kobe was less mature and actively feuding with Shaq for much of the year and they were still arguably the greatest playoff team ever. Peak Kobe with Peak Shaq would probably beat the 1996 Bulls. Better question is Peak Kobe on 2001 Lakers vs Peak Jordan on 1996 Bulls.

[tsherkin]

Let's assume peak Kobe figured out how to manage things with Shaq just fine and they clicked like they did in actual 2001.

That would be an interesting series. Chicago had no prayer of guarding Shaq. Jordan proved he could be slowed, at least in that particular incarnation. I think Kobe would have relished the challenge, and he certainly had enough athleticism to try and keep pace with older Jordan and frustrate him. Plus, the 01 Lakers had Horry and Grant, Fisher, Fox, Ty Lue... It was a great team, and they SMASHED in the playoffs. They swept the West, remember.

The Bulls frequently had their most trouble with teams which had significant interior scorers and defenders, and Shaq in 2000 and 2001 was certainly that. He wasn't quite the rotational defender you'd see out of someone like Olajuwon, of course, but he would beat the tar out of everyone on Chicago's roster in his 01 form, even Rodman.

I'd say 7 games, and I think LA takes it in a close one.

[ropjhk]

Peak Kobe might actually be a detriment in some ways to the 2001 Lakers. If he butted heads with Shaq and went rogue on him then you could have another 2004 situation.

2001 Kobe was less mature and actively feuding with Shaq for much of the year and they were still arguably the greatest playoff team ever. Peak Kobe with Peak Shaq would probably beat the 1996 Bulls. Better question is Peak Kobe on 2001 Lakers vs Peak Jordan on 1996 Bulls.

Yeah but when it mattered the two had great on court chemistry and there was no question about the game plan. That collaboration fell apart in 2004.

2001 Kobe was also amazing. He never averaged more rebounds and assists in the playoffs than that year.

How would 2005-2007 Kobe collaborate with Shaq if he was magically placed back on the 2001 team? I would expect his ego to yearn to prove that he was better than Shaq all along.

In a vacuum I'd easily agree that Kobe was a better player from 2005-2010 than he was in 2001. But that's not what this thread is about. We're being asked to imagine a version of Kobe whose animosity with Shaq was at its highest replacing a version of Kobe that had the best chemistry with Shaq in their careers. Does the improvement in Kobe's game offset the potential disruption in chemistry, considering where we saw in 2004 how a lack of cohesion hurt the team to the point where they suffered one of the greatest upsets in NBA history?

Personally I don't think it makes that much of a difference. If one thinks the original 2001 Lakers team would beat the 96 Bulls or vice versa I think they should just stick with that. I don't actually think a different Kobe will make that much of a difference either way. A more mature attitude from prime Kobe would restrict his game to gel with Shaq and the improvement would be marginal. A rogue attitude from prime Kobe would hurt chemistry but he could make up for that by being at the peak of his abilities, so any decline would be marginal. Either way I don't think it would make much difference.

[LascelleL]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

[tsherkin]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

[NyKnicks1714]

I might go 2001 Lakers just as they were. Shaq was that dominant and unstoppable.

[LascelleL]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

I agree with you, in terms of thats when it all came together but I think the 06-07 season, especially with the number change is when he really started coming around.

[mdonnelly1989]

I might go 2001 Lakers just as they were. Shaq was that dominant and unstoppable.

I think the key matchups would be interesting. Does Scottie spend more time on Kobe like he did Magic in 1991 to let MJ spend most of his energy on offense. Do they double Shaq and try to make everyone else beat them. Or do they let Shaq be singled and take everyone else out.

Rodman would not guard Shaq I don't think but he would make everyone else life a lot more difficult including playing help defense on Kobe.

[mdonnelly1989]

Let's assume peak Kobe figured out how to manage things with Shaq just fine and they clicked like they did in actual 2001.

That would be an interesting series. Chicago had no prayer of guarding Shaq. Jordan proved he could be slowed, at least in that particular incarnation. I think Kobe would have relished the challenge, and he certainly had enough athleticism to try and keep pace with older Jordan and frustrate him. Plus, the 01 Lakers had Horry and Grant, Fisher, Fox, Ty Lue... It was a great team, and they SMASHED in the playoffs. They swept the West, remember.

The Bulls frequently had their most trouble with teams which had significant interior scorers and defenders, and Shaq in 2000 and 2001 was certainly that. He wasn't quite the rotational defender you'd see out of someone like Olajuwon, of course, but he would beat the tar out of everyone on Chicago's roster in his 01 form, even Rodman.

I'd say 7 games, and I think LA takes it in a close one.

I asked this a few years back. Who had the better supporting cast 1996 Bulls MJ/Scottie or 01 Shaq/Kobe.

A vast majority of the votes went to 1996 Bulls had the better supporting cast outside of the two stars. I wasn't old enough at the time but from what I have heard and read in 11 Rings they sounded fairly equal!?

[tsherkin]

2001 Kobe (Frobe) is Peak athleticism but 06 is when his mentality caught up with everything else. I think the Lakers are deadlier with a wiser Kobe

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

I agree with you, in terms of thats when it all came together but I think the 06-07 season, especially with the number change is when he really started coming around.

I'd cut the difference and say 08, heh. I think Kobe needed a minute to get all the shooting out of his system and to go through what MJ did before finally breaking through against the Pistons, you know? "I need these guys to win" and all that. In 07, he was still leading the league in shooting volume, and 08 was his actual MVP season.

[tsherkin]

I asked this a few years back. Who had the better supporting cast 1996 Bulls MJ/Scottie or 01 Shaq/Kobe.

A vast majority of the votes went to 1996 Bulls had the better supporting cast outside of the two stars. I wasn't old enough at the time but from what I have heard and read in 11 Rings they sounded fairly equal!?

Tough call. I think I'd say the Lakers, because Kobe was better as #2 than Pippen (personality clashes and all), and then that year, they had Fox/Horry/Fisher, but also Grant and Madsen and like half a season of Ron Harper, etc, etc, etc. They had real depth that year, which was missing in seasons thereafter.

[Stan]

The difference between '01 Kobe & let's say '06-'08 Kobe is so minimal the distinction isn't even notable. The guy averaged 29/7/6 in the playoffs while having to share the rock with peak Shaq, the peak version of Kobe isn't playing noticeably better than that.

[Raps in 4]

I might go 2001 Lakers just as they were. Shaq was that dominant and unstoppable.

Agreed. Shaq + Kobe is a stronger duo than MJ + Pippen. The supporting casts were good on both teams (Chicago might have a slight edge there).

[tsherkin]

The difference between '01 Kobe & let's say '06-'08 Kobe is so minimal the distinction isn't even notable. The guy averaged 29/7/6 in the playoffs while having to share the rock with peak Shaq, the peak version of Kobe isn't playing noticeably better than that.

It isn't about statistical production. Kobe in 01 averaged that 29/7/6. Over half a decade of learning, coupled to getting over his need for scoring titles and trying to do everything himself, led to him being a smarter player. That's sort of inevitable.

[druggas]

I'm taking whoever had the best coach.

[Yank3525]

Honestly, I think peak mentality is actually 09 Kobe. 06, he was just bombing from everywhere because he had little to work with.

I agree with you, in terms of thats when it all came together but I think the 06-07 season, especially with the number change is when he really started coming around.

I'd cut the difference and say 08, heh. I think Kobe needed a minute to get all the shooting out of his system and to go through what MJ did before finally breaking through against the Pistons, you know? "I need these guys to win" and all that. In 07, he was still leading the league in shooting volume, and 08 was his actual MVP season.

I get what you are saying. But Kobe was playing like 2008 Kobe for the first half of 2006-07. At the All-star break he was averaging 29/5/5 on 59%TS on 20 shots per a game. His scoring went up because of injuries to the roster in the second half. If I remember correctly, Phil told him he needed to be more assertive.

I think Kobe got "it" as early as 2005. The roster just needed to be better.

[mdonnelly1989]

I'm taking whoever had the best coach.

Two things are for sure.

1. Phil Jackson is winning that.
2. Phil Jackson is getting outcoached.

[mdonnelly1989]

The difference between '01 Kobe & let's say '06-'08 Kobe is so minimal the distinction isn't even notable. The guy averaged 29/7/6 in the playoffs while having to share the rock with peak Shaq, the peak version of Kobe isn't playing noticeably better than that.

It isn't about statistical production. Kobe in 01 averaged that 29/7/6. Over half a decade of learning, coupled to getting over his need for scoring titles and trying to do everything himself, led to him being a smarter player. That's sort of inevitable.

Yeah what you're talking about is the intangibles. Those don't always show up in the box score. It is fascinating though given that Kobe lost Ahtleticism by then. The smarter more experienced Kobe V the younger more explosive Kobe does make it for different dynamics and a good conversation.