The challenge of winning without another top 50 all time superstar

Moderators: bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285, Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake

User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

The challenge of winning without another top 50 all time superstar 

Post#1 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:01 pm

Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.

MJ - 0
LeBron - 1
Kareem - 0
Russell - 5
Duncan - 1
Hakeem -1
Wilt - 1
Shaq - 0
KG - 0
Magic - 1
Curry - 2
Bird - 1
Kobe - 2
West - 0
Oscar - 0
Dirk - 1
Erving - 0
KD - 0
Robinson - 0
Moses - 0
Giannis - 1
Jokic - 1
Kawhi - 1
Frazier - 2
Havlicek -2
Barry - 1
Tatum - 1
SGA - 1
CIN-C-STAR
General Manager
Posts: 8,409
And1: 18,259
Joined: Dec 17, 2017

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#2 » by CIN-C-STAR » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:14 pm

List seems flawed though.
You have Dirk at 1, but is Jason Kidd not a top-50 player?
And if you’re saying he was too old and just a role player at that point, doesn’t Duncan get credit for ‘03? Sure, David Robinson was on that team, but he was also an old role player at that point.
Maybe the list should be a top-50 player who made an All-Star team the same season?
Or even just winning a title without another All NBA guy on your team? Because you could have a great teammate who isn’t top-50 all time simply due to injuries and a short peak or something.
"I'd rather have Kevin Love spacing out to the three point line than anything (Karl) Malone brings"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
TheNG
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,499
And1: 1,814
Joined: Feb 14, 2019

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#3 » by TheNG » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:16 pm

Jokic is the only player who won the ring without another previous All Star in the starting lineup.
If you have more "Posts" than "And1", don't feel bad if I didn't reply to you - I just don't like to speak with people who argue a lot :beer:
User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#4 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:29 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:List seems flawed though.
You have Dirk at 1, but is Jason Kidd not a top-50 player?
And if you’re saying he was too old and just a role player at that point, doesn’t Duncan get credit for ‘03? Sure, David Robinson was on that team, but he was also an old role player at that point.
Maybe the list should be a top-50 player who made an All-Star team the same season?
Or even just winning a title without another All NBA guy on your team? Because you could have a great teammate who isn’t top-50 all time simply due to injuries and a short peak or something.

well Kidd was on his last years while Robinson still received MVP vote on that year.
User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#5 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:30 pm

TheNG wrote:Jokic is the only player who won the ring without another previous All Star in the starting lineup.

for sure, if he wins another ring i dont see why he is not a top 10 player all time not even counting another 5 years prime left in him.
Exp0sed
General Manager
Posts: 7,863
And1: 7,326
Joined: Feb 10, 2022

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#6 » by Exp0sed » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:38 pm

cpower wrote:Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.

MJ - 0
LeBron - 1
Kareem - 0
Russell - 5
Duncan - 0
Hakeem -1
Wilt - 1
Shaq - 0
KG - 0
Magic - 1
Curry - 2
Bird - 1
Kobe - 2
West - 0
Oscar - 0
Dirk - 1
Erving - 0
KD - 0
Robinson - 0
Moses - 0
Giannis - 1
Jokic - 1
Kawhi - 1
Frazier - 2
Havlicek -2
Barry - 1
Tatum - 1
SGA - 1
J-Dub was an all-star last season and a top 50 player,no matter how you slice it


Sent from my SM-A055F using RealGM mobile app
CIN-C-STAR
General Manager
Posts: 8,409
And1: 18,259
Joined: Dec 17, 2017

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#7 » by CIN-C-STAR » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:40 pm

cpower wrote:
CIN-C-STAR wrote:List seems flawed though.
You have Dirk at 1, but is Jason Kidd not a top-50 player?
And if you’re saying he was too old and just a role player at that point, doesn’t Duncan get credit for ‘03? Sure, David Robinson was on that team, but he was also an old role player at that point.
Maybe the list should be a top-50 player who made an All-Star team the same season?
Or even just winning a title without another All NBA guy on your team? Because you could have a great teammate who isn’t top-50 all time simply due to injuries and a short peak or something.

well Kidd was on his last years while Robinson still received MVP vote on that year.


What??
D Rob averaged 8,8 & 1 and retired after the season lol
You’re way off here. He was washed and not even an All Star. Duncan won MVP that year and carried them to a championship.
"I'd rather have Kevin Love spacing out to the three point line than anything (Karl) Malone brings"
:lol: :lol: :lol:
bkkrh
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,447
And1: 1,916
Joined: Apr 12, 2024
 

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#8 » by bkkrh » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:50 pm

Sorry but this list is just dumb in that form. Bill Russell won exactly 2 titles in his career, where he didn´t have another player on the roster that got MVP votes that season. In most seasons the Celtics had 3 players that did get MVP votes. In one of those 2 seasons, him and Havlicek made 2nd team, Sam Jones was still an All Star and Bailey Howell was a 6 time All Star that averaged 20 and 10 that year. The other title was the following season with the exact same players still on the roster.

Russell played his whole career on the most loaded team in the league, that a lot of those players won´t make an All Time top 100 is just logical. It´s as if today I´d put Jokic on a team with Evan Mobley, Jalen Williams and Donovan Mitchell and then argue that he won titles without a top 100 player, while they dominate the league for the rest of the decade.
User avatar
Dominator83
RealGM
Posts: 21,060
And1: 32,300
Joined: Jan 16, 2005
Location: NBA Hell

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#9 » by Dominator83 » Sat Jul 19, 2025 6:56 pm

What season did LeBron do that? The two with Wade and Bosh? The one with Kyrie? Or the one with AD?
Fantasy Hoops/Football/Baseball fans..

For info on a forum that actually talks Fantasy sports and not spammed with soliciting leagues, PM me. The more the merrier !
Roscoe Sheed
RealGM
Posts: 11,312
And1: 5,232
Joined: May 01, 2007
Location: Los Angeles

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#10 » by Roscoe Sheed » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:18 pm

TheNG wrote:Jokic is the only player who won the ring without another previous All Star in the starting lineup.

that is factually true, but Murray played like a first team all-NBA player in those playoffs.
okboomer
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,364
And1: 1,117
Joined: May 28, 2021
Location: Stuck in the 2nd Round
     

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#11 » by okboomer » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:30 pm

I think going back 70 years, the 2004 Pistons are the only team to win a finals without a player who was never selected to 1st team all NBA at some point during their career.
User avatar
Lalouie
RealGM
Posts: 23,094
And1: 12,311
Joined: May 12, 2017

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#12 » by Lalouie » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:34 pm

cpower wrote:Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.

MJ - 0
LeBron - 1
Kareem - 0
Russell - 5
Duncan - 0
Hakeem -1
Wilt - 1
Shaq - 0
KG - 0
Magic - 1
Curry - 2
Bird - 1
Kobe - 2
West - 0
Oscar - 0
Dirk - 1
Erving - 0
KD - 0
Robinson - 0
Moses - 0
Giannis - 1
Jokic - 1
Kawhi - 1
Frazier - 2
Havlicek -2
Barry - 1
Tatum - 1
SGA - 1


brown is not a top50???? khris or jrue ? earl the pearl? is the magic thing when he was without kareem in the finals???

lebron - wade, bosh, ad, kyrie. love was a top50 until he went to cavs and lebron turned him into a non top50. klove was a 26.1/12.5/4.4 player in his last year at minnie

so it comes down to who's top 50. maurice lucas has never been in anyone's top50, so WALTON should be "walton - 1"

but anyways,,,for those who think russell had the advantage of playing with hof'ers,,,he MADE THEM HOF'ERS
nazario
Sophomore
Posts: 104
And1: 126
Joined: Nov 11, 2012

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#13 » by nazario » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:38 pm

cpower wrote:Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.


Tbf, its not coincidental that Jokic and SGA managed it now. The teams are more equal, but the league is also lacking in true powerhouses. Lebron winning 1 against GSW with Kyrie and Love (or GSW against the Cavs) and against the Spurs isn't lesser than Jokic winning with Murray against injured Butler and friends, or SGA against a pacers that are hard to place and lost their only star in game 7.

Context.
okboomer
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,364
And1: 1,117
Joined: May 28, 2021
Location: Stuck in the 2nd Round
     

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#14 » by okboomer » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:41 pm

Lalouie wrote:
cpower wrote:Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.

MJ - 0
LeBron - 1
Kareem - 0
Russell - 5
Duncan - 0
Hakeem -1
Wilt - 1
Shaq - 0
KG - 0
Magic - 1
Curry - 2
Bird - 1
Kobe - 2
West - 0
Oscar - 0
Dirk - 1
Erving - 0
KD - 0
Robinson - 0
Moses - 0
Giannis - 1
Jokic - 1
Kawhi - 1
Frazier - 2
Havlicek -2
Barry - 1
Tatum - 1
SGA - 1


brown is not a top50???? khris or jrue ? earl the pearl? is the magic thing when he was without kareem in the finals???

lebron - wade, bosh, ad, kyrie. love was a top50 until he went to cavs and lebron turned him into a non top50. klove was a 26.1/12.5/4.4 player in his last year at minnie

so it comes down to who's top 50

but anyways,,,for those who think russell had the advantage of playing with hof'ers,,,he MADE THEM HOF'ERS


I think it is top 50 player of all time. Jaylen is very great though does not fit that category.
User avatar
Lalouie
RealGM
Posts: 23,094
And1: 12,311
Joined: May 12, 2017

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#15 » by Lalouie » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:48 pm

okboomer wrote:
Lalouie wrote:
cpower wrote:Spent some time to find how difficult to carry a team to win a ring without another top 50 player (based on 2023 top 100 list) in the prime on the team. The result is pretty convincing that its very challenging, in fact, in modern NBA nobody has won 2 more rings using this criteria. Jokic/SGA likely to add more in the next couple of years.

MJ - 0
LeBron - 1
Kareem - 0
Russell - 5
Duncan - 0
Hakeem -1
Wilt - 1
Shaq - 0
KG - 0
Magic - 1
Curry - 2
Bird - 1
Kobe - 2
West - 0
Oscar - 0
Dirk - 1
Erving - 0
KD - 0
Robinson - 0
Moses - 0
Giannis - 1
Jokic - 1
Kawhi - 1
Frazier - 2
Havlicek -2
Barry - 1
Tatum - 1
SGA - 1


brown is not a top50???? khris or jrue ? earl the pearl? is the magic thing when he was without kareem in the finals???

lebron - wade, bosh, ad, kyrie. love was a top50 until he went to cavs and lebron turned him into a non top50. klove was a 26.1/12.5/4.4 player in his last year at minnie

so it comes down to who's top 50

but anyways,,,for those who think russell had the advantage of playing with hof'ers,,,he MADE THEM HOF'ERS


I think it is top 50 player of all time. Jaylen is very great though does not fit that category.


then it is a tremendously erroneous list

it is similar to the "lebron never played with the players magic and bird had' which is an ill-fitting statement

lebron didn't have to play with the mchales or kareems of the world. he rounded up some of the best player in his era and that's all that's supposed to be needed....ie,,,if say you are a college football team in the mountain west, you're not supposed to whine about not getting 'bama level talent. you are good enough if you get the best talent in the mountain west
ropjhk
RealGM
Posts: 19,341
And1: 12,452
Joined: Jul 09, 2002
     

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#16 » by ropjhk » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:50 pm

This thread is silly. What if the top 50 player was at the end of their career? What if a player played with a player who was top 10 in a given year?

The counts on the list in the OP are meaningless.
kuclas
General Manager
Posts: 7,748
And1: 3,964
Joined: Nov 08, 2016
     

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#17 » by kuclas » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:58 pm

TheNG wrote:Jokic is the only player who won the ring without another previous All Star in the starting lineup.


Sorta. He needs Jamal Murray playing like a top 25 player in the playoffs or Jokic doesn’t stand a chance either.

When Murray doesn’t play well. Jokic has no chance as great as he is.
User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#18 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 7:59 pm

ropjhk wrote:This thread is silly. What if the top 50 player was at the end of their career? What if a player played with a player who was top 10 in a given year?

The counts on the list in the OP are meaningless.

in the prime or near prime was being considered here
User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#19 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 8:00 pm

Dominator83 wrote:What season did LeBron do that? The two with Wade and Bosh? The one with Kyrie? Or the one with AD?

With Kyrie, When he won with AD and Wade were both top 50 all time comfortably.
User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 20,809
And1: 8,654
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Re: The challenge of winning without another top 50 superstar 

Post#20 » by cpower » Sat Jul 19, 2025 8:02 pm

CIN-C-STAR wrote:
cpower wrote:
CIN-C-STAR wrote:List seems flawed though.
You have Dirk at 1, but is Jason Kidd not a top-50 player?
And if you’re saying he was too old and just a role player at that point, doesn’t Duncan get credit for ‘03? Sure, David Robinson was on that team, but he was also an old role player at that point.
Maybe the list should be a top-50 player who made an All-Star team the same season?
Or even just winning a title without another All NBA guy on your team? Because you could have a great teammate who isn’t top-50 all time simply due to injuries and a short peak or something.

well Kidd was on his last years while Robinson still received MVP vote on that year.


What??
D Rob averaged 8,8 & 1 and retired after the season lol
You’re way off here. He was washed and not even an All Star. Duncan won MVP that year and carried them to a championship.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1999.html
I think you looked at the wrong season, D Rob was 12th in MVP vote , 6.7 BPM for RS.

You do have a point Duncan won later with young manu before the prime year so he should have 1

Return to The General Board