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I think majority of people would say is he's the best pf of all time, even though he frequently played both the 4 & 5 spot, moving that to side, Duncan was a fantastic player on both sides of the court, even when he was clearly in decline, he still remined pretty effective.

So as good as Duncan was, which at minimum a top 10 player, why hasn't he won a dpoy award?

Cheers guya

For the people that were alive during Duncan's prime, did the fans and any journalist ever say he was the best defender in the NBA?

06-07 season. Duncan led the Spurs to #1 in defensive rating. The actual winner was Marcus Camby who only led his team to a middle of the pack defense.

07 is the obvious pick. Absolute travesty that he didn't win, for me the biggest award robbery ever. Spurs had the #1 rated defense and he was obviously the anchor.

In other seasons there's always a legit candidate against him. Big Ben, Mutombo, etc. But not 07. Camby had a gaudy BPG and helped the Nuggets to a middling defense instead of a bad one.

IIRC, voters actually gave Bruce Bowen more votes than Duncan. I think there was a general lack of understanding among voters regarding defense back then, BPG and SPG and perimeter defense were overvalued.

Yeah, 07 at the least. You could argue 99 (San Antonio was a much better D than Miami, but he did have Robinson alongside him in a better capacity than later into D-Rob's decline) and I think Duncan definitely deserved it in 04; I don't think Artest/MWP had any business winning it that year.

And as Bloodbather said, voters were hugely swayed by box score stats. And then votes for Bowen over Duncan were just... ridiculous.

I'd say only about 10-12 seasons or so...

2007 is a pretty obvious season largely because while Duncan only did 34 minutes a game, the winner wasn't very strong.
2001 - there's really no reason to give it to Duncan over Deke, but it would be completely legit to give it to Duncan instead.
2002 - again, you can leave it with Ben, but once again Duncan had the stats and impact numbers.
2005 - 2003 and 2004 Ben Wallace just should have run away with it. I'm not sure again that he's clearly better than Duncan. As memory serves I think the argument I remember Hollinger basically making the case Duncan was better per minute but Ben played more so Ben should get it. This was the first year that Duncan dropped his minutes.

2006 was the year Duncan was dealing with that foot issue so that's out, plus Wallace was a monster.
Oh and 2004 clearly should have been Ben Wallace but both KG and Duncan should be over Ron Artest...metta who cares.

He was all-NBA defensive 1st team 8 times in his career.

He finished 3rd in voting in 2001.

4th in voting in 2003.

7th in voting in 2004.

4th in voting in 2005.

6th in voting in 2006.

3rd in voting in 2007.


For me, I'd say that in 2001 and 2007 he had strong cases.

I think he deserved DPOY many years, but thats not saying he was robbed.

I remember backlash over Cambys DPOY, but I am not expert on how great or not great Camby was, I was not a religious NBA follower back then. But over the decades, rim protection was either worshiped or dismissed completely, so I am not sure if Camby complains were legitimate. Maybe he was that good? I remember when Ibaka was DPOY candidate, those were the years where a lot of new media members and fans were dismissing rim protection, people argued Nick Collison was better defender cause of post defense. I remember Leigh Ellis was huge Ibaka supporter, and JE Skeets said ''you one of those voters'', basically implying people who valued block numbers were wrong, and Leigh Ellis brought all the points how Ibaka's fear factor completely changes how opponents attact the basket, but it was cool hipster thing to rank no stats guys like Collison or even Kendrik Perkins higher. I am just painting a picture that over the years, everyone followed contemporary beliefs of the times and when year passes, people flip flop on their belief which defense is the best. Nowadays, no one would think of Collison or Perkins much however, simply cause post defense is as unimportant as ever from sheer fact how game is played

Also. TIm Duncan is a center. he was a center, I am convinced people only think of him as PF cause NBA.com and video games listed him as PF. Or maybe it was first impression, first two years Duncan played PF and it just stick. Kinda how there are still people who say James Harden is Shooting guard, like WTF? Dude was a freaking center, end of story, it was assinine to see official NBA websites go out of their way to list Duncan as PF, when he was starting with Matt Bonenr, they called Bonner a Center and Duncan a PF, liek who are you freaking kidding?

UcanUwill wrote:I think he deserved DPOY many years, but thats not saying he was robbed.

I remember backlash over Cambys DPOY, but I am not expert on how great or not great Camby was, I was not a religious NBA follower back then. But over the decades, rim protection was either worshiped or dismissed completely, so I am not sure if Camby complains were legitimate. Maybe he was that good?

He wasn't better than Duncan that year, and his team wasn't better than the Spurs on D either. He also played 10 fewer games. What he did do was lead the league in BPG, which was an easy metric for people of the time to use to go "AHAHA, DPOY!" Duncan was about 0.6 points better in defensive xRAPM, as well, for what that's worth.

Camby was a pretty good defensive piece in his day, but yeah, that was another puzzler.

UcanUwill wrote:Also. TIm Duncan is a center. he was a center, I am convinced people only think of him as PF cause NBA.com and video games listed him as PF.

I mean he played next to David Robinson (and Will Perdue, so at times he was playing SF(like for real playing SF). Then Rasho.(and Nazr). So we have to get all the way to the 06-07 season to make any kind of case that Duncan was the center as opposed to Elson/Oberto, but when you look at Elson, well he's only a center so the case there is still pretty weak.

Now from 07-08 on I think most would agree Duncan was mostly a center. But a big chunk of his career, it makes way more sense to label him the PF than the bigs he was playing with.

But whats even stranger than people attempting to re-write history and say Duncan was always a center, is how much effort they put into making this a narrative still. Like why does it matter? I know there is a huge KG contingent on this board pretty desperate to have him be named the GOAT PF, so I know they run with this agenda (so glad my fellow Dirk homies don't engage in this nonsense and accept Duncan is the GOAT and that's okay it doesn'd diminish Dirk(or KG) in any way to acknowledge Timmy was just better.

He was a PF then transformed into a center. And what's super funny is that we never make this argument about Dirk yet Dallas employed lower level centers prior to Tyson Chandler and so Dirk was closing games for years as a center but nobody ever tries to insist he was a center. Because there is no agenda like there always is with Tim.

He played both. A lot. He was absolutely a legit PF for years.

Texas Chuck wrote:He was a PF then transformed into a center. And what's super funny is that we never make this argument about Dirk yet Dallas employed lower level centers prior to Tyson Chandler and so Dirk was closing games for years as a center but nobody ever tries to insist he was a center. Because there is no agenda like there always is with Tim.

I mean, I recall a bunch of people calling Dirk a small-ball center at the time, it's just that no one cared. He was good enough that he was secure in his legacy, and the league mostly called him a PF, so there was never hint of an issue. As you say, I imagine it comes a lot from competition for All-NBA spots and comparisons to the big guns and all that at the time, but for sure, Duncan was a PF for large swaths of his career.

Texas Chuck wrote:

UcanUwill wrote:Also. TIm Duncan is a center. he was a center, I am convinced people only think of him as PF cause NBA.com and video games listed him as PF.

I mean he played next to David Robinson (and Will Perdue, so at times he was playing SF(like for real playing SF). Then Rasho.(and Nazr). So we have to get all the way to the 06-07 season to make any kind of case that Duncan was the center as opposed to Elson/Oberto, but when you look at Elson, well he's only a center so the case there is still pretty weak.

Now from 07-08 on I think most would agree Duncan was mostly a center. But a big chunk of his career, it makes way more sense to label him the PF than the bigs he was playing with.

But whats even stranger than people attempting to re-write history and say Duncan was always a center, is how much effort they put into making this a narrative still. Like why does it matter? I know there is a huge KG contingent on this board pretty desperate to have him be named the GOAT PF, so I know they run with this agenda (so glad my fellow Dirk homies don't engage in this nonsense and accept Duncan is the GOAT and that's okay it doesn'd diminish Dirk(or KG) in any way to acknowledge Timmy was just better.

He was a PF then transformed into a center. And what's super funny is that we never make this argument about Dirk yet Dallas employed lower level centers prior to Tyson Chandler and so Dirk was closing games for years as a center but nobody ever tries to insist he was a center. Because there is no agenda like there always is with Tim.

He played both. A lot. He was absolutely a legit PF for years.

They called it from day one, twin towers because they ran two centers. I'll never get why this is hard to understand. It's like the Suns with KJ and Kidd...and Nash too. They ran 2 point guards. I get we like to put people into nice boxes but that's just not how the Spurs actually played. Duncan was the post up scorer and he did it like a center. But he also could step out and take guys off the dribble...like Hakeem or Ewing. We can call that a power forward spot but a lot of centers liked that area.

Robinson even at his best often wanted to play more in the 4 zone than the 5.

dhsilv2 wrote:They called it from day one, twin towers because they ran two centers. I'll never get why this is hard to understand. It's like the Suns with KJ and Kidd...and Nash too. They ran 2 point guards. I get we like to put people into nice boxes but that's just not how the Spurs actually played. Duncan was the post up scorer and he did it like a center. But he also could step out and take guys off the dribble...like Hakeem or Ewing. We can call that a power forward spot but a lot of centers liked that area.

Robinson even at his best often wanted to play more in the 4 zone than the 5.

I'm cool with anyone who wants to say the Spurs played two centers. Because it really shouldn't matter his label, but if we are going to go with the traditional labels we were still using for the bulk of Duncan's career, he would be the PF the first half of his career.

Bloodbather wrote:07 is the obvious pick. Absolute travesty that he didn't win, for me the biggest award robbery ever. Spurs had the #1 rated defense and he was obviously the anchor.

In other seasons there's always a legit candidate against him. Big Ben, Mutombo, etc. But not 07. Camby had a gaudy BPG and helped the Nuggets to a middling defense instead of a bad one.

IIRC, voters actually gave Bruce Bowen more votes than Duncan. I think there was a general lack of understanding among voters regarding defense back then, BPG and SPG and perimeter defense were overvalued.

Yes, that's true. https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/awards_2007.html#all_dpoy

In the same year Shawn Marion was 4th in DPOY voting (seven first place votes) and didn't even make All-Defense 2nd team.

Bloodbather wrote:IIRC, voters actually gave Bruce Bowen more votes than Duncan. I think there was a general lack of understanding among voters regarding defense back then, BPG and SPG and perimeter defense were overvalued.

Bruce Bowen only averaged 0.8 steals and 0.4 blocks in his career, and even during 2001-2008 he only averaged 0.9 steals and 0.4 blocks.

bonita_the_frog wrote:

Bloodbather wrote:IIRC, voters actually gave Bruce Bowen more votes than Duncan. I think there was a general lack of understanding among voters regarding defense back then, BPG and SPG and perimeter defense were overvalued.

Bruce Bowen only averaged 0.8 steals and 0.4 blocks in his career, and even during 2001-2008 he only averaged 0.9 steals and 0.4 blocks.

And he got 22 first-place votes and 206 total points (Duncan had 15 and 158) because the voters were eating too much wall candy that year, for sure. With him, it was all about rep on perimeter stars, though where that rep was over his first half-decade or so in the league, I couldn't tell you. It was only when he had Duncan behind him, cleaning up his mistakes, that his utility really shot through the roof.

Texas Chuck wrote:

UcanUwill wrote:Also. TIm Duncan is a center. he was a center, I am convinced people only think of him as PF cause NBA.com and video games listed him as PF.

I mean he played next to David Robinson (and Will Perdue, so at times he was playing SF(like for real playing SF). Then Rasho.(and Nazr). So we have to get all the way to the 06-07 season to make any kind of case that Duncan was the center as opposed to Elson/Oberto, but when you look at Elson, well he's only a center so the case there is still pretty weak.

Now from 07-08 on I think most would agree Duncan was mostly a center. But a big chunk of his career, it makes way more sense to label him the PF than the bigs he was playing with.

But whats even stranger than people attempting to re-write history and say Duncan was always a center, is how much effort they put into making this a narrative still. Like why does it matter? I know there is a huge KG contingent on this board pretty desperate to have him be named the GOAT PF, so I know they run with this agenda (so glad my fellow Dirk homies don't engage in this nonsense and accept Duncan is the GOAT and that's okay it doesn'd diminish Dirk(or KG) in any way to acknowledge Timmy was just better.

He was a PF then transformed into a center. And what's super funny is that we never make this argument about Dirk yet Dallas employed lower level centers prior to Tyson Chandler and so Dirk was closing games for years as a center but nobody ever tries to insist he was a center. Because there is no agenda like there always is with Tim.

He played both. A lot. He was absolutely a legit PF for years.

You just need to look how guys played. Even with Rasho and Nazr in the same lineup, I would still call Duncan a center, how is he not a center, dude played center position with another center in a lineup. Some lineups can have zero centers, like that Dirk one, some can have two at the same time. You just need to look at how guy played the game, his duties on court is to be center, especially on defense but also offensively. If I have Shaq in the game but also sub Chris Mihm or something, that does not mean that one of them is not center anymore, like what are we debating. In reality, Duncan was always a center, and I can only agree he played out of position some times.

I remember one side reporter asking Pop who will start at center for them tonight, and Pop just said, same guy who started center for us for the last 15 years - Tim Duncan. Everyone trying to not make him a center when he was a center on court was simply asinine.

Texas Chuck wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:They called it from day one, twin towers because they ran two centers. I'll never get why this is hard to understand. It's like the Suns with KJ and Kidd...and Nash too. They ran 2 point guards. I get we like to put people into nice boxes but that's just not how the Spurs actually played. Duncan was the post up scorer and he did it like a center. But he also could step out and take guys off the dribble...like Hakeem or Ewing. We can call that a power forward spot but a lot of centers liked that area.

Robinson even at his best often wanted to play more in the 4 zone than the 5.

I'm cool with anyone who wants to say the Spurs played two centers. Because it really shouldn't matter his label, but if we are going to go with the traditional labels we were still using for the bulk of Duncan's career, he would be the PF the first half of his career.

He was listed as a power forward most of his time on the court his first two seasons. After that he really was like 60:40 or something outside of 2006 where I guess you'd call Nasho and Nazr both centers. But he played more center by tracking even in 2005.

So at best you can say he was PF/C but he always played heavy minutes at center from day one (still was like 20% center). Add in he was built like a center and played like on. It's hard for the guy I'd used as a text book center, to call him a power forward.

If we add the playoffs to this mix. From 2001-2007 basketball reference has Duncan at center 59% of the playoffs.

And if we had 4th quarter crunch time data, I suspect we'd see similar all regular season. So yeah...much like Manu would come off the bench and finish games. They had another big body to make Duncan's life easier starting. But Duncan would end up carrying the big man load after that.

tsherkin wrote:

bonita_the_frog wrote:

Bloodbather wrote:IIRC, voters actually gave Bruce Bowen more votes than Duncan. I think there was a general lack of understanding among voters regarding defense back then, BPG and SPG and perimeter defense were overvalued.

Bruce Bowen only averaged 0.8 steals and 0.4 blocks in his career, and even during 2001-2008 he only averaged 0.9 steals and 0.4 blocks.

And he got 22 first-place votes and 206 total points (Duncan had 15 and 158) because the voters were eating too much wall candy that year, for sure. With him, it was all about rep on perimeter stars, though where that rep was over his first half-decade or so in the league, I couldn't tell you. It was only when he had Duncan behind him, cleaning up his mistakes, that his utility really shot through the roof.

That's weird, i've done about 20 or 30 fantasy drafts (in video games) over the years, and Bowen is the ONLY player i've selected EVERY time.
I've always viewed Bowen as the ultimate 3andD player and the symbol of rough defense (along with Ron Artest, but Bowen's a better 3pt shooter).