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In your opinion, who are some of the best defenders in NBA history that were never selected for an All-Defensive Team? The first names that come to my mind are Jermaine O'Neal, Shawn Kemp, Shawn Marion, and Kenyon Martin.

Rasheed Wallace

Shawn Marion

I had no idea the Matrix never made an all defense team.

Correct answer is Rasheed almost 100% unless 70's fan has a guy who missed out in the Russell, Wilt, Thurmond era. But for small guards, who tops Rubio?

Maxthirty wrote:I had no idea the Matrix never made an all defense team.

Playing on a very offensive minded team certainly didn't do him any favors in terms of his defensive prowess being properly regarded and recognized. I've always held the opinion that if Marion traded places with Tayshaun Prince and played on those mid 2000's Pistons teams, he would be right up there with Pip and Kawhi in the conversation for greatest wing defender of all-time.

AStark1991 wrote:

Maxthirty wrote:I had no idea the Matrix never made an all defense team.

Playing on a very offensive minded team certainly didn't do him any favors in terms of his defensive prowess being properly regarded and recognized. I've always held the opinion that if Marion traded places with Tayshaun Prince and played on those mid 2000's Pistons teams, he would be right up there with Pip and Kawhi in the conversation for greatest wing defender of all-time.

Criminally underrated.

AStark1991 wrote:

Maxthirty wrote:I had no idea the Matrix never made an all defense team.

Playing on a very offensive minded team certainly didn't do him any favors in terms of his defensive prowess being properly regarded and recognized. I've always held the opinion that if Marion traded places with Tayshaun Prince and played on those mid 2000's Pistons teams, he would be right up there with Pip and Kawhi in the conversation for greatest wing defender of all-time.

Raja Bell was voted to the All-Defense 1st team in 2007 and 2nd team in 2008 despite playing on the same offensive minded Suns. So while Marion might have an disadvantage compared to the Pistons players, it was no exclusion criterion.

Marion just had bad luck in having such great competition on his position that often played on better defensive teams overall:
2003 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Artest & Bowen
2004 1st team Bowen & Artest / 2nd team Kirilenko & Duncan
2005 1st team Duncan & Garnett / 2nd team Prince & Kirilenko
2006 1st team Kirilenko & Artest / 2nd team Garnett & Duncan
2007 1st team Bowen & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Garnett
2008 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Battier

So he wasn't robbed except for the circumstance that Duncan was ranked as a forward instead of a center (I think that he clearly played center on the defensive end). Just the wrong era for him. Same can be said for Sheed who had the same competition for some years.

Masigond wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:

Maxthirty wrote:I had no idea the Matrix never made an all defense team.

Playing on a very offensive minded team certainly didn't do him any favors in terms of his defensive prowess being properly regarded and recognized. I've always held the opinion that if Marion traded places with Tayshaun Prince and played on those mid 2000's Pistons teams, he would be right up there with Pip and Kawhi in the conversation for greatest wing defender of all-time.

Raja Bell was voted to the All-Defense 1st team in 2007 and 2nd team in 2008 despite playing on the same offensive minded Suns. So while Marion might have an disadvantage compared to the Pistons players, it was no exclusion criterion.

Marion just had bad luck in having such great competition on his position that often played on better defensive teams overall:
2003 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Artest & Bowen
2004 1st team Bowen & Artest / 2nd team Kirilenko & Duncan
2005 1st team Duncan & Garnett / 2nd team Prince & Kirilenko
2006 1st team Kirilenko & Artest / 2nd team Garnett & Duncan
2007 1st team Bowen & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Garnett
2008 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Battier

So he wasn't robbed except for the circumstance that Duncan was ranked as a forward instead of a center (I think that he clearly played center on the defensive end). Just the wrong era for him. Same can be said for Sheed who had the same competition for some years.

Bell got it from his complete BS "kobe stopper" crap. That was the media eating up a story and voting so they could write about it...and thus profit. I don't disagree with the competition part being a huge factor btw. Just saying, the media is wild here.

dhsilv2 wrote:

Masigond wrote:

AStark1991 wrote:Playing on a very offensive minded team certainly didn't do him any favors in terms of his defensive prowess being properly regarded and recognized. I've always held the opinion that if Marion traded places with Tayshaun Prince and played on those mid 2000's Pistons teams, he would be right up there with Pip and Kawhi in the conversation for greatest wing defender of all-time.

Raja Bell was voted to the All-Defense 1st team in 2007 and 2nd team in 2008 despite playing on the same offensive minded Suns. So while Marion might have an disadvantage compared to the Pistons players, it was no exclusion criterion.

Marion just had bad luck in having such great competition on his position that often played on better defensive teams overall:
2003 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Artest & Bowen
2004 1st team Bowen & Artest / 2nd team Kirilenko & Duncan
2005 1st team Duncan & Garnett / 2nd team Prince & Kirilenko
2006 1st team Kirilenko & Artest / 2nd team Garnett & Duncan
2007 1st team Bowen & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Garnett
2008 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Battier

So he wasn't robbed except for the circumstance that Duncan was ranked as a forward instead of a center (I think that he clearly played center on the defensive end). Just the wrong era for him. Same can be said for Sheed who had the same competition for some years.

Bell got it from his complete BS "kobe stopper" crap. That was the media eating up a story and voting so they could write about it...and thus profit. I don't disagree with the competition part being a huge factor btw. Just saying, the media is wild here.

Back then voting was performed by the NBA head coaches. A media panel came in 2013-14. Journalists voted for the DPOY during that era.

But yes, maybe even the coaches bought into that story. Kobe got all those nominations, too, despite not always giving full effort (and other guards clearly being more deserving), so coaches aren't all-knowing either.

dhsilv2 wrote:Correct answer is Rasheed almost 100% unless 70's fan has a guy who missed out in the Russell, Wilt, Thurmond era. But for small guards, who tops Rubio?

Taking players from the 1960s is cheating, because the award didn't exist. I couldn't find anyone better than Sheed to be honest.

The two guys that came to my mind is Wes Unseld and Sam Lacey. I don't think they were better than Wallace though.

Aaron Gordon

Masigond wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:

Masigond wrote:Raja Bell was voted to the All-Defense 1st team in 2007 and 2nd team in 2008 despite playing on the same offensive minded Suns. So while Marion might have an disadvantage compared to the Pistons players, it was no exclusion criterion.

Marion just had bad luck in having such great competition on his position that often played on better defensive teams overall:
2003 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Artest & Bowen
2004 1st team Bowen & Artest / 2nd team Kirilenko & Duncan
2005 1st team Duncan & Garnett / 2nd team Prince & Kirilenko
2006 1st team Kirilenko & Artest / 2nd team Garnett & Duncan
2007 1st team Bowen & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Garnett
2008 1st team Garnett & Duncan / 2nd team Prince & Battier

So he wasn't robbed except for the circumstance that Duncan was ranked as a forward instead of a center (I think that he clearly played center on the defensive end). Just the wrong era for him. Same can be said for Sheed who had the same competition for some years.

Bell got it from his complete BS "kobe stopper" crap. That was the media eating up a story and voting so they could write about it...and thus profit. I don't disagree with the competition part being a huge factor btw. Just saying, the media is wild here.

Back then voting was performed by the NBA head coaches. A media panel came in 2013-14. Journalists voted for the DPOY during that era.

But yes, maybe even the coaches bought into that story. Kobe got all those nominations, too, despite not always giving full effort (and other guards clearly being more deserving), so coaches aren't all-knowing either.

Gotcha back when interns were doing the actual votes

70sFan wrote:

dhsilv2 wrote:Correct answer is Rasheed almost 100% unless 70's fan has a guy who missed out in the Russell, Wilt, Thurmond era. But for small guards, who tops Rubio?

Taking players from the 1960s is cheating, because the award didn't exist. I couldn't find anyone better than Sheed to be honest.

The two guys that came to my mind is Wes Unseld and Sam Lacey. I don't think they were better than Wallace though.

Unseld is a good choice!

Anthony Edwards.
Even though the Thunder won 4-1 over the Twolves, SGA only shot .457 (while ANT shot .471).

Sheed and Marion have long been the obvious answers to this question.
Insanely good defenders who happened to be forwards in the same positional voting era as Duncan and KG. The media being obsessed with Bruce Bowen's defensive reputation didn't help (he often got more DPOY votes than Duncan). It was crazy that we had to put 4 guards on the teams no matter what, every year. It's much harder to find a forward that didn't deserve to be there.


Current guys who haven't made a team: Aaron Gordon, Herb Jones, Jayson Tatum.

bonita_the_frog wrote:Anthony Edwards.
Even though the Thunder won 4-1 over the Twolves, SGA only shot .457 (while ANT shot .471).

Our primary defender on Shai was Jaden McDaniels. NAW would also guard him the most off the bench. Ant guarded him some.

From the active ones, Gordon and DFS.

Manu Ginobili had some crazy defensive ratings for a guy never to make All-Defense Team. Some years his DRtg were Ben Wallace-esque which was unheard of for a perimeter player.

Bill Laimbeer