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Curious how folks think he stacks up.

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

Too early to say imo.

Probably need more time but should be top 5-10 at the end of his career with chance of moving up obviously .

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

I can’t help but wonder if he would be as successful if landed a job in Philadelphia instead of. What would he have done differently.
Would he draft Ben?
Extend Embiid?

Sam is amongst the best ever.

I understand that the method of determining where he stands is to count rings, look at winning percentage and perhaps look at some contextual factors. Red Auerbach, Jerry West, RC Buford and Pat Riley are the top general managers off the top of my head. In the context of innovation, system building, decision making and weaving a team into a community, he holds his own with all of them.

Most posters, even Thunder fans are unaware of what he’s done or how he’s done it and that is just fine with Presti.

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

A good question, but I have to say I don’t keep GM GOAT list.

Let me just name some guys to talk through it a bit.

The first great GM (and also owner and coach) was Les Harrison who launched the Rochester Royals after World War II, and the NBL expansion team immediately became the best pro team in the world. He assembled his team by grabbing the best players from the military after they were freed from duty. He was definitely a dude playing chess while others played checkers, but that run of competitive separation from rivals didn’t last once the NBA developed their draft-based system.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Minneapolis Lakers GM Max Winter, though I know less of how much their early dynasty was specifically about him. Regardless, when the expansion Lakers, in a relatively small metro even then, immediately came in and signed the two biggest free agents (George Mikan and Jim Pollard), this is what set the course for the Lakers to become what they are now - the strongest team brand in basketball.

Red Auerbach is the next guy, and the clear GOAT to this day. Basically from the 50s to the 80s he’s was the gold standard. He’s so obviously the Man here I don’t think I even need to elaborate on what all he did.

Next true great is probably Jerry Colangelo, who basically launched the Phoenix Suns like Harrison did the Royals. Scout/coach/GM/owner he did it all. He also won EOY 4 times and became the most powerful voice in the ear of David Stern which enabled him essentially turn the NBA into pace and space.

Then we get to Jerry West who has a case for best-since-Red at GM even before we look at his continued legend later in when he was more of a consultant that worked with GMs who knew he was a better GM than they were.

Next up we get Gregg Popovich along with his partners and protégés who gave the Spurs a serious competitive advantage with their early adoption of international players and play. There’s also the matter that their player development was incredible, and while that’s more about coaching than GMing it feels relevant to mention here.

You can argue I should have mentioned Pat Riley before Pop, but I do think Riley’s great ‘80s and ‘90s run should be seen as primarily a coaching accomplishment. It wasn’t until the ‘00s in Miami when he really shifted his role looking to identify and empower great coaches - and boy did he, the Van Gundy bros were brilliant, Spo even more so.

As we move through the decade, we see Danny Ainge prove he could walk the walk in addition to talking the talk (which began in the ‘80s as a player). What he did in Boston first with their early adoption Big 3 era, then managing to get a competing franchise to give him assets so he can free from the by-then behind-the-times Doc Rivers and go hire the one modern college coach who actually proved to be brilliant by NBA standards (Brad Stevens), and then the new build around Tatum, just super-impressive.

And then we get to Pop-protege Sam Presti who I think we can safely say has had the best GM career of anyone who has come since. With the capstone of the title last year after this new masterful build, including identifying an unknown of a coach who has been the most cutting edge thinker in the NBA in the 2020s (Mark Daigneault), he deserved to be considered on a list like this.

I’ll put him ahead of the two early guys (Harrison & Winter), and say he probably needs more longevity to top

Red
Colangelo
West
Pop
Riley
Ainge

So I’ll say Top 10 at this time, but not quite Top 5.


EDIT: Okay, reading the poll and seeing I listed 6 guys I'd put ahead of Presti, I voted 7th.

It's possible I'm forgetting other candidates though.

Ruma85 wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

Too early to say imo.

Really? This is, what, his 19th season as a GM? You wouldn't refuse to evaluate players and coaches with that much experience would you?

He's probably the best drafting GM already. Overall top 10. He built 2 contenders, won a title, and has drafted like ten All-Stars, including multiple All-NBA and All-Defense guys. Most of which are not very high draft picks.

Legendary gm.on the Level of the greats like gottlieb,trader jack and ned irish.guy is a spectacular builder.

Got his team to the finals within 5 years of being hired. Won a championship. Drafted 4 eventual MVPs, 2 of which won MVP as members of the Thunder, won a championship. Great asset management, savvy with the media.

He is one of the best GMs ever, can make a case for him against anybody, and he has a long career ahead of him.

Presti has not drafted particularly well outside the top 5 and he made one of the worst trades of all-time in trading Harden for essentially nothing. Then lost KD for nothing then proceeded to build a team around a flawed Westbrook for 4 years before being bailed out by the Clippers.

Presti is definitely a good GM but to be considered one of the best, you need to hit on picks outside of the top 5. His team without SGA would be a middling squad as well. Clippers played a big role in his recent success.

I think he's going to be up there with the greats... a few more championships will cement it.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

A good question, but I have to say I don’t keep GM GOAT list.

Let me just name some guys to talk through it a bit.

The first great GM (and also owner and coach) was Les Harrison who launched the Rochester Royals after World War II, and the NBL expansion team immediately became the best pro team in the world. He assembled his team by grabbing the best players from the military after they were freed from duty. He was definitely a dude playing chess while others played checkers, but that run of competitive separation from rivals didn’t last once the NBA developed their draft-based system.

I’d be remiss if I didn’t mention Minneapolis Lakers GM Max Winter, though I know less of how much their early dynasty was specifically about him. Regardless, when the expansion Lakers, in a relatively small metro even then, immediately came in and signed the two biggest free agents (George Mikan and Jim Pollard), this is what set the course for the Lakers to become what they are now - the strongest team brand in basketball.

Red Auerbach is the next guy, and the clear GOAT to this day. Basically from the 50s to the 80s he’s was the gold standard. He’s so obviously the Man here I don’t think I even need to elaborate on what all he did.

Next true great is probably Jerry Colangelo, who basically launched the Phoenix Suns like Harrison did the Royals. Scout/coach/GM/owner he did it all. He also won EOY 4 times and became the most powerful voice in the ear of David Stern which enabled him essentially turn the NBA into pace and space.

Then we get to Jerry West who has a case for best-since-Red at GM even before we look at his continued legend later in when he was more of a consultant that worked with GMs who knew he was a better GM than they were.

Next up we get Gregg Popovich along with his partners and protégés who gave the Spurs a serious competitive advantage with their early adoption of international players and play. There’s also the matter that their player development was incredible, and while that’s more about coaching than GMing it feels relevant to mention here.

You can argue I should have mentioned Pat Riley before Pop, but I do think Riley’s great ‘80s and ‘90s run should be seen as primarily a coaching accomplishment. It wasn’t until the ‘00s in Miami when he really shifted his role looking to identify and empower great coaches - and boy did he, the Van Gundy bros were brilliant, Spo even more so.

As we move through the decade, we see Danny Ainge prove he could walk the walk in addition to talking the talk (which began in the ‘80s as a player). What he did in Boston first with their early adoption Big 3 era, then managing to get a competing franchise to give him assets so he can free from the by-then behind-the-times Doc Rivers and go hire the one modern college coach who actually proved to be brilliant by NBA standards (Brad Stevens), and then the new build around Tatum, just super-impressive.

And then we get to Pop-protege Sam Presti who I think we can safely say has had the best GM career of anyone who has come since. With the capstone of the title last year after this new masterful build, including identifying an unknown of a coach who has been the most cutting edge thinker in the NBA in the 2020s (Mark Daigneault), he deserved to be considered on a list like this.

I’ll put him ahead of the two early guys (Harrison & Winter), and say he probably needs more longevity to top

Red
Colangelo
West
Pop
Riley
Ainge

So I’ll say Top 10 at this time, but not quite Top 5.


EDIT: Okay, reading the poll and seeing I listed 6 guys I'd put ahead of Presti, I voted 7th.

It's possible I'm forgetting other candidates though.

I would take Jerry krause over Colangelo every day of week

Doctor MJ wrote:

Ruma85 wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:Curious how folks think he stacks up.

Too early to say imo.

Really? This is, what, his 19th season as a GM? You wouldn't refuse to evaluate players and coaches with that much experience would you?

Well he only has one title, & considering how the 2nd apron is working against a lot of teams, it's a wait and see approach for me.

No I wouldn't, but those totally different roles, then to a gm.

AleksandarN wrote:I would take Jerry krause over Colangelo every day of week

Hmm, well you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but do consider:

1. Do you really think you'd think this if not for Jordan? It's not like drafting Jordan at #3 took any kind of basketball brain to do, everyone knew he was a top 2 talent in the draft. So all of the Krauss' rings primarily on the back of a guy he really doesn't deserve any credit for drafting, and he managed to make that player hate him over the course of the run.

2. Krauss really only had one successful era. Remember, he was so keen to rebuild after Jordan-Pippen to show he could do it again, and when he did so, it was an embarrassing disappointment.

Colangelo, like the other guys I listed, all proved repeatedly they could build really good teams and could do so without making the players they dislike him.

Ruma85 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Ruma85 wrote:
Too early to say imo.

Really? This is, what, his 19th season as a GM? You wouldn't refuse to evaluate players and coaches with that much experience would you?

Well he only has one title, & considering how the 2nd apron is working against a lot of teams, it's a wait and see approach for me.

No I wouldn't, but those totally different roles, then to a gm.

Sounds to me like you're thinking that 19 years as a GM is a much more common thing than 19 years as a coach, but it isn't.

There are only 17 guys in NBA history who GMed as many seasons as Presti has already, and if you look at the list, I kinda doubt you're going to feel like most of these guys did more than Presti.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Ruma85 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Really? This is, what, his 19th season as a GM? You wouldn't refuse to evaluate players and coaches with that much experience would you?

Well he only has one title, & considering how the 2nd apron is working against a lot of teams, it's a wait and see approach for me.

No I wouldn't, but those totally different roles, then to a gm.

Sounds to me like you're thinking that 19 years as a GM is a much more common thing than 19 years as a coach, but it isn't.

There are only 17 guys in NBA history who GMed as many seasons as Presti has already, and if you look at the list, I kinda doubt you're going to feel like most of these guys did more than Presti.

You can judge the way you like, it can sound like how ever you want it to sound for you, it's hard to say where he ranks with one title, but what he's done is impressive regardless of how many years his been in control. Just don't know where to rank hence why I haven't voted.

Doctor MJ wrote:

AleksandarN wrote:I would take Jerry krause over Colangelo every day of week

Hmm, well you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but do consider:

1. Do you really think you'd think this if not for Jordan? It's not like drafting Jordan at #3 took any kind of basketball brain to do, everyone knew he was a top 2 talent in the draft. So all of the Krauss' rings primarily on the back of a guy he really doesn't deserve any credit for drafting, and he managed to make that player hate him over the course of the run.

2. Krauss really only had one successful era. Remember, he was so keen to rebuild after Jordan-Pippen to show he could do it again, and when he did so, it was an embarrassing disappointment.

Colangelo, like the other guys I listed, all proved repeatedly they could build really good teams and could do so without making the players they dislike him.

I guess Barkley doesn’t count. Also the Colangelos was a disaster in Philly. He even tried to threaten the Philly organization to protect his son who he hired and was a disaster

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-fire-gm-bryan-colangelo-aftermath-burner-account-scandal/

More than one person who spoke to PhillyVoice on the condition of anonymity suggested Jerry Colangelo tried to intervene on Bryan's behalf, threatening to interfere with club relationships around the league. The Sixers, aware of Colangelo's influence around the league and his connection to numerous agents and power brokers after decades of work in basketball, opted to move forward carefully in what team sources described as a chaotic, uncertain environment.

AleksandarN wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

AleksandarN wrote:I would take Jerry krause over Colangelo every day of week

Hmm, well you're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but do consider:

1. Do you really think you'd think this if not for Jordan? It's not like drafting Jordan at #3 took any kind of basketball brain to do, everyone knew he was a top 2 talent in the draft. So all of the Krauss' rings primarily on the back of a guy he really doesn't deserve any credit for drafting, and he managed to make that player hate him over the course of the run.

2. Krauss really only had one successful era. Remember, he was so keen to rebuild after Jordan-Pippen to show he could do it again, and when he did so, it was an embarrassing disappointment.

Colangelo, like the other guys I listed, all proved repeatedly they could build really good teams and could do so without making the players they dislike him.

I guess Barkley doesn’t count. Also the Colangelos was a disaster in Philly. He even tried to threaten the Philly organization to protect his son who he hired and was a disaster

https://www.phillyvoice.com/sixers-fire-gm-bryan-colangelo-aftermath-burner-account-scandal/

More than one person who spoke to PhillyVoice on the condition of anonymity suggested Jerry Colangelo tried to intervene on Bryan's behalf, threatening to interfere with club relationships around the league. The Sixers, aware of Colangelo's influence around the league and his connection to numerous agents and power brokers after decades of work in basketball, opted to move forward carefully in what team sources described as a chaotic, uncertain environment.

Barkley, huh? Are you saying people thought Barkley was a better prospect than Jordan?

Re: Colangelos disaster in Philly. I thought you might be indexing on that. Just keep in mind that in Jerry Colangelo, we're talking about a guy who first became a GM before he was 30, and you're assessment of him is based on something that happened when he was more in his 70s more than a decade after he retired.

To be clear, I think it's fine to criticize Jerry for his part in what happened in Philly, but the idea that it would effectively erase the decades of previous basketball accomplishment really doesn't resonate with me.

We should also remember what actually happened with the scandal: We're talking about his wife seeking to anonymously defend her husband online, getting found out, and that ending her husband's career. Not good, but also, not really a statement about basketball expertise.

In terms of the actual basketball executive work, I do consider Bryan to have failed in both Toronto & Philly certainly, and if Jerry was involved in making specific basketball scouting decisions about Andrea Bargnani, Rudy Gay, Markelle Fultz, etc, it certainly would give reason to think that his scouting eye wasn't as sharp as it used to be... but I kinda doubt he was trying to get involved with those sort of decisions at that stage in his life.

Here's where I'll also note that Jerry was a real basketball man - college player, scout, coach, GM, before owner - while his son was merely the son of a basketball man. Often in these cases, it seems like the son can get overconfident in his own scouting eye, particularly if they've had some previous success.

But as I say all of that, we shouldn't forget that the only reason that 76ers ownership reached out to the Colangelos is that things were already a train wreck in Philly with the team in the 3rd year of a re-build that saw them getting worse every year. While the cold logic of Hinkie made sense back then (before they tinkered with the lottery odds more), he had no particular eye for basketball scouting himself, he completely ignored even trying to build a basketball team that fit together, and he did not instill a culture that trained up the young players he was banking on to become mature professionals.

Additionally, while it's find to say Hinkie did a better job of Bryan, I don't think it makes sense to say "Well, Hinkie wouldn't have done that" about the Fultz-Tatum trade because it's not like he wouldn't have wanted to go big to try to get a mega-talent and it's not like Hinkie had the capacity to realize Tatum was the actual mega-talent when most of the basketball world didn't realize it either. I think realistically, if the Colangelos never get involved with Philly, things turn out basically the same as they did, and so we should be careful about treating it like they ruined an actually well through out team-building plan simply because someone in their family did something dumb on the internet.

He did amazing job building a team twice, but 1 title in 20 years is simply not enough to be considered all time great.