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For a guy who never made an All-Defensive First Team, his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard with fans today. I understand he is the all-time steals leader and overall a pesk as a help defender, but as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw, his size limited that obviously. There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched.





Porter basically took a giant **** on Stockton that entire series.

John Stockton is an overrated player in general that has benefitted from a limited understanding of what makes a basketball player great.

He was an overrated playmaker and defender.

What he was great at is being a professional. He knew where to be and what to do. He came prepared every night and tried hard. He's the OG try hard player with average athleticism. Think Prime Westbrook hustle with a brain.

A guy that is barely 6 foot with average athleticism isn't going to be a great defender or playmaker. They are not stopping anybody and they are not carrying a team.

Every nba player, no matter how great a defender they are or were has been torched before. Stockton was a very good defensive player despite his small stature and lack of elite athleticism. I think he was best at raising the level of his teammates performance because of his ability to run the offense more so than his individual defensive ability. Gary Payton said he was his toughest cover which means alot coming from that guy.

First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^. Watched the Porter one, most of the plays were Stockton was defending him were well defended. Not much what he can do if Porter still hits a contested jump shot.

bkkrh wrote:First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Jason Kidd was like 37 when that happened.

I don't think Kidd's man defense at his peak is that highly regarded either. It was his ability to switch and guard multiple positions and his GOAT level help defense for a guard.

as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw... There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched

Including the playoffs Stockton played in 1686 NBA games. How many of those did you watch?

Every player gets torched at some point, and the more games you play, the odds are high you're going to see even the greatest defenders get torched.

Stockon started at PG for Utah for 16 years (1987-88 to 2002-03). During that time as a team Utah was 4th best in the league defensively (102.8 pts/100poss allowed). Only New York, Portland, and San Antonio were better defensively, and 25+ teams were worse, and over those 16 seasons teams ranged from 102.1 to 107.9 pts/100poss allowed.

Although 91 different players played for the Jazz during that time, Stockton alone played a little less than 1/7 of the team's total minutes played. That's a tad less than 14% of the team's total minutes, but he alone accounted for 26% of the team's total steals. That's more than 1/4 of the team's total steals - by just one player.

Also during all that time (16 seasons) Utah as a team allowed the 2nd lowest 2pt FG% (46.4%). Only San Antonio allowed a lower 2pt FG%.

Do you realize that if Stockton was just an average defender over all that time, that in playing 1/7 of the team's total minutes the entire rest of the team would have to had played defense at a rate better than the best defensive team in the league over all that time just to rank 4th best as they actually did?

Over 9 of those seasons (1988-89 to 1996-97) he was voted to the all-defensive team 5 times. And 3 of those times he was the only PG named to the all-defensive team (1988-89, 1990-91, 1992-92). The all-defensive team back then was voted on by NBA head coaches.

So for a long stretch there NBA coaches thought very highly of Stockton's defense.

John Stockton is an overrated player in general that has benefitted from a limited understanding of what makes a basketball player great. He was an overrated playmaker and defender. A guy that is barely 6 foot with average athleticism isn't going to be a great defender or playmaker.

Chris Paul was listed at 6-0 and 175 lb. Was named to the all-defensive team 9 years in a 10 year stretch. Those same 10 years he threw for 1200+ more assists than did any other players.

You're wrong not just once but twice.

bkkrh wrote:First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Mookie Blaylock as well to the other players you mentioned

threethehardway wrote:John Stockton is an overrated player in general that has benefitted from a limited understanding of what makes a basketball player great.

He was an overrated playmaker and defender.

What he was great at is being a professional. He knew where to be and what to do. He came prepared every night and tried hard. He's the OG try hard player with average athleticism. Think Prime Westbrook hustle with a brain.

A guy that is barely 6 foot with average athleticism isn't going to be a great defender or playmaker. They are not stopping anybody and they are not carrying a team.

Comparing Stockton with Westbrook is pretty wild. But perhaps not as wild as claiming Stockton racked up those assists and steals by simply ‘trying hard’.

In terms of Stocktons defense, he was definitely way above average. Very smart, a nasty little bastard and understood team defense. If he’d have been a few inches taller and more explosive he’d be an all time great defender.

his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard

I have never seen this and I have spent way too much time discussing basketball online.

kcktiny wrote:

as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw... There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched

Including the playoffs Stockton played in 1686 NBA games. How many of those did you watch?

Every player gets torched at some point, and the more games you play, the odds are high you're going to see even the greatest defenders get torched.

Stockon started at PG for Utah for 16 years (1987-88 to 2002-03). During that time as a team Utah was 4th best in the league defensively (102.8 pts/100poss allowed). Only New York, Portland, and San Antonio were better defensively, and 25+ teams were worse, and over those 16 seasons teams ranged from 102.1 to 107.9 pts/100poss allowed.

Although 91 different players played for the Jazz during that time, Stockton alone played a little less than 1/7 of the team's total minutes played. That's a tad less than 14% of the team's total minutes, but he alone accounted for 26% of the team's total steals. That's more than 1/4 of the team's total steals - by just one player.

Also during all that time (16 seasons) Utah as a team allowed the 2nd lowest 2pt FG% (46.4%). Only San Antonio allowed a lower 2pt FG%.

Do you realize that if Stockton was just an average defender over all that time, that in playing 1/7 of the team's total minutes the entire rest of the team would have to had played defense at a rate better than the best defensive team in the league over all that time just to rank 4th best as they actually did?

Over 9 of those seasons (1988-89 to 1996-97) he was voted to the all-defensive team 5 times. And 3 of those times he was the only PG named to the all-defensive team (1988-89, 1990-91, 1992-92). The all-defensive team back then was voted on by NBA head coaches.

So for a long stretch there NBA coaches thought very highly of Stockton's defense.

John Stockton is an overrated player in general that has benefitted from a limited understanding of what makes a basketball player great. He was an overrated playmaker and defender. A guy that is barely 6 foot with average athleticism isn't going to be a great defender or playmaker.

Chris Paul was listed at 6-0 and 175 lb. Was named to the all-defensive team 9 years in a 10 year stretch. Those same 10 years he threw for 1200+ more assists than did any other players.

You're not wrong just once but twice.

Utah was already an elite defensive team during Stockton's rookie season where he played under 20 mpg and was coming off the bench. It's well known Utah's elite defense from the 80's was mainly due to Eaton.

The moment Eaton left the team, their defense took a noticeable hit in 1993. They were never an elite defense team again after Eaton left.

Bergmaniac wrote:

his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard

I have never seen this and I have spent way too much time discussing basketball online.

viewtopic.php?t=1791397

Stockton is ahead of CP3 who made 7 All-Defensive First Teams and Nate McMillan.

Jrue Holiday should also be on the list and ahead of Stockton, but the list is from 2019 so I'll give it a pass.

Bronsexuals coming for Stockton now after his comments

Mean_Streets wrote:

bkkrh wrote:First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Jason Kidd was like 37 when that happened.

I don't think Kidd's man defense at his peak is that highly regarded either. It was his ability to switch and guard multiple positions and his GOAT level help defense for a guard.

He was also an All Star that season and Andre Miller is 3 years younger than him. But ok, how about getting 45 from 38 year old Michael Jordan & 43 from almost 40 year od MJ? Or 43 & 42 from AI? Or 42 from Steve Nash & CP3?

Sounds pretty bad if Kidd would have played about 20 games in the league, but seems pretty good for almost 1400 regular season games. Same goes for Stockton. Actually, I find it pretty impressive that Stockton is probably in single digits in games his matchup scored 40+ points for the amount of games he played.

They were never an elite defense team again after Eaton left.

Oh no?

From 1993-94 to 2002-03 Utah was the 5th best team in the league defensively (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). The only teams better were New York, San Antonio, Miami, and Portland. That means 25 teams were worse defensively.

Stockton alone played 1/8 to 1/7 of Utah's total minutes played during that time, accounted for over 1/5 of the team's steals.

bkkrh wrote:

Mean_Streets wrote:

bkkrh wrote:First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Jason Kidd was like 37 when that happened.

I don't think Kidd's man defense at his peak is that highly regarded either. It was his ability to switch and guard multiple positions and his GOAT level help defense for a guard.

He was also an All Star that season and Andre Miller is 3 years younger than him. But ok, how about getting 45 from 38 year old Michael Jordan & 43 from almost 40 year od MJ? Or 43 & 42 from AI? Or 42 from Steve Nash & CP3?

Sounds pretty bad if Kidd would have played about 20 games in the league, but seems pretty good for almost 1400 regular season games. Same goes for Stockton. Actually, I find it pretty impressive that Stockton is probably in single digits in games his matchup scored 40+ points for the amount of games he played.

A quick search shows me Kidd wasn't even the primary defender on MJ in his 45 point game. Another swing and a miss.

Mean_Streets wrote:For a guy who never made an All-Defensive First Team, his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard with fans today. I understand he is the all-time steals leader and overall a pesk as a help defender, but as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw, his size limited that obviously. There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Porter basically took a giant **** on Stockton that entire series.

He wasn’t overrated he was dirty asf

kcktiny wrote:

They were never an elite defense team again after Eaton left.

Oh no?

From 1993-94 to 2002-03 Utah was the 5th best team in the league defensively (102.4 pts/100poss allowed). The only teams better were New York, San Antonio, Miami, and Portland. That means 25 teams were worse defensively.

Stockton alone played 1/8 to 1/7 of Utah's total minutes played during that time, accounted for over 1/5 of the team's steals.

They were never a top 5 defense from '94 to '03. Usually hovered around #8 and some years outside the top 10.

Get a clue.

Mean_Streets wrote:

bkkrh wrote:

Mean_Streets wrote:
Jason Kidd was like 37 when that happened.

I don't think Kidd's man defense at his peak is that highly regarded either. It was his ability to switch and guard multiple positions and his GOAT level help defense for a guard.

He was also an All Star that season and Andre Miller is 3 years younger than him. But ok, how about getting 45 from 38 year old Michael Jordan & 43 from almost 40 year od MJ? Or 43 & 42 from AI? Or 42 from Steve Nash & CP3?

Sounds pretty bad if Kidd would have played about 20 games in the league, but seems pretty good for almost 1400 regular season games. Same goes for Stockton. Actually, I find it pretty impressive that Stockton is probably in single digits in games his matchup scored 40+ points for the amount of games he played.

A quick search shows me Kidd wasn't even the primary defender on MJ in his 45 point game. Another swing and a miss.

Watch on YouTube

Great, what about the other games I named? Also maybe make a quick search about Kidd´s defense not being regarded that high when he made All Defense 1st teams and got DPOY votes. Or when he is listed in every ranking list you can find as a better defender than Stockton.

https://eu.hoopshype.com/story/sports/nba/rankings/2025/02/19/20-greatest-defensive-point-guards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/79228812007/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/878506-60-greatest-defensive-players-in-nba-history

https://knupsports.com/5-defensive-point-guards-nba-history/

https://sportsnaut.com/nba/five-best-defensive-point-guards-nba-history/

bkkrh wrote:

Mean_Streets wrote:

bkkrh wrote:
He was also an All Star that season and Andre Miller is 3 years younger than him. But ok, how about getting 45 from 38 year old Michael Jordan & 43 from almost 40 year od MJ? Or 43 & 42 from AI? Or 42 from Steve Nash & CP3?

Sounds pretty bad if Kidd would have played about 20 games in the league, but seems pretty good for almost 1400 regular season games. Same goes for Stockton. Actually, I find it pretty impressive that Stockton is probably in single digits in games his matchup scored 40+ points for the amount of games he played.

A quick search shows me Kidd wasn't even the primary defender on MJ in his 45 point game. Another swing and a miss.

Watch on YouTube

Great, what about the other games I named? Also maybe make a quick search about Kidd´s defense not being regarded that high when he made All Defense 1st teams and got DPOY votes. Or when he is listed in every ranking list you can find as a better defender than Stockton.

https://eu.hoopshype.com/story/sports/nba/rankings/2025/02/19/20-greatest-defensive-point-guards-ever-the-hoopshype-list/79228812007/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/878506-60-greatest-defensive-players-in-nba-history

https://knupsports.com/5-defensive-point-guards-nba-history/

https://sportsnaut.com/nba/five-best-defensive-point-guards-nba-history/

I haven't checked the other games, but the fact that you named one game and a quick search on my part showed you were 100% wrong tells me you are most likely wrong on your other claims.

I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I never said Kidd wasn't a great defender, I said his defense is mostly praised for his ability to guard multiple positions and "GOAT" level help defense, but there were better man defenders out there. I actually have Kidd as my GOAT defensive point guard.

AleksandarN wrote:

Mean_Streets wrote:For a guy who never made an All-Defensive First Team, his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard with fans today. I understand he is the all-time steals leader and overall a pesk as a help defender, but as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw, his size limited that obviously. There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Porter basically took a giant **** on Stockton that entire series.

He wasn’t overrated he was dirty asf

Yea, not sure he is overrated, depends on the baseline of how people rate his defense. It is possible that he is, I've not really examined people's ranking of his defense.

That said:

https://youtu.be/QXruK6bjw00?si=CQmeFJZNZ0P6tjF1

Dirty is definitely a description that consistently comes up from peers alongside the praise