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Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 1:37 am
by SHAQ32
22 seasons and he's never led the #1 offense in the league, despite playing with hall of famers and talented offensive supporting casts
And when I say other all time greats, I mean guys like Magic, Nash, Shaq, Dirk, and Jordan
I feel like LeBron is great at making LeBron great offensively but not so much the team
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 1:41 am
by falcolombardi
You should add (regular season) to your title cause lebron literally has 2 of the top 3 playoff offense runs ever back to back
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 1:43 am
by SHAQ32
falcolombardi wrote:You should add (regular season) to your title cause lebron literally has 2 of the top 3 playoff offense runs ever back to back
Are those before or after the 2016 rule changes?
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 1:44 am
by Jcity08
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 1:47 am
by Maxthirty
Yes.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:04 am
by zimpy27
Yes.
homecourtloss wrote:I was looking at the relative offensive rating (rORtg) in playoff series between six players we often discuss here on the PC board and the rORtgs spearheaded by each.
In the charts below, you can see how these players did against specific defenses. LeBron is brown circles, the red circles are Jordan, the purple is Magic, the yellow is Curry, the green are Nash, and the blue is Jokic.
There have been 81 playoff series between these six players that have produced a rORtg of +8 or greater.
LeBron: 22
Jordan: 18
Magic: 16
Nash and Curry: 11
Jokic: 3
There have been 25 playoff series of a rORtg of +12 or greater:
LeBron: 8
Magic: 6
Jordan: 5
Nash: 4
Curry: 2
There have been 14 playoff series of a rORtg of +15 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Magic: 3
Jordan: 3
Nash: 3
Curry: 1
There have been 6 playoff series of a rORtg of +18 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Nash: 1
Curry: 1
There have been 4 playoff series of rORtg of +20 or greater:
LeBron: 3
Nash: 1
Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.
And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:05 am
by taikibansei
What did the man do to some of you people?
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:07 am
by SlimShady83
Yes, No, call me maybe baby!
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:13 am
by SHAQ32
zimpy27 wrote:Yes.
homecourtloss wrote:I was looking at the relative offensive rating (rORtg) in playoff series between six players we often discuss here on the PC board and the rORtgs spearheaded by each.
In the charts below, you can see how these players did against specific defenses. LeBron is good, the red circles are Jordan, the purple is Magic, the yellow is Curry, the green are Nash, and the blue is Jokic.
There have been 81 playoff series between these six players that have produced a rORtg of +8 or greater.
LeBron: 22
Jordan: 18
Magic: 16
Nash and Curry: 11
Jokic: 3
There have been 25 playoff series of a rORtg of +12 or greater:
LeBron: 8
Magic: 6
Jordan: 5
Nash: 4
Curry: 2
There have been 14 playoff series of a rORtg of +15 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Magic: 3
Jordan: 3
Nash: 3
Curry: 1
There have been 6 playoff series of a rORtg of +18 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Nash: 1
Curry: 1
There have been 4 playoff series of rORtg of +20 or greater:
LeBron: 3
Nash: 1
Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.
And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:20 am
by taikibansei
SHAQ32 wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes.
homecourtloss wrote:I was looking at the relative offensive rating (rORtg) in playoff series between six players we often discuss here on the PC board and the rORtgs spearheaded by each.
In the charts below, you can see how these players did against specific defenses. LeBron is good, the red circles are Jordan, the purple is Magic, the yellow is Curry, the green are Nash, and the blue is Jokic.
There have been 81 playoff series between these six players that have produced a rORtg of +8 or greater.
LeBron: 22
Jordan: 18
Magic: 16
Nash and Curry: 11
Jokic: 3
There have been 25 playoff series of a rORtg of +12 or greater:
LeBron: 8
Magic: 6
Jordan: 5
Nash: 4
Curry: 2
There have been 14 playoff series of a rORtg of +15 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Magic: 3
Jordan: 3
Nash: 3
Curry: 1
There have been 6 playoff series of a rORtg of +18 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Nash: 1
Curry: 1
There have been 4 playoff series of rORtg of +20 or greater:
LeBron: 3
Nash: 1
Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.
And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Pre-2017 doesn't count then? As in nothing counts before Lebron turned 33?!
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:21 am
by zimpy27
SHAQ32 wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes.
homecourtloss wrote:I was looking at the relative offensive rating (rORtg) in playoff series between six players we often discuss here on the PC board and the rORtgs spearheaded by each.
In the charts below, you can see how these players did against specific defenses. LeBron is good, the red circles are Jordan, the purple is Magic, the yellow is Curry, the green are Nash, and the blue is Jokic.
There have been 81 playoff series between these six players that have produced a rORtg of +8 or greater.
LeBron: 22
Jordan: 18
Magic: 16
Nash and Curry: 11
Jokic: 3
There have been 25 playoff series of a rORtg of +12 or greater:
LeBron: 8
Magic: 6
Jordan: 5
Nash: 4
Curry: 2
There have been 14 playoff series of a rORtg of +15 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Magic: 3
Jordan: 3
Nash: 3
Curry: 1
There have been 6 playoff series of a rORtg of +18 or greater:
LeBron: 4
Nash: 1
Curry: 1
There have been 4 playoff series of rORtg of +20 or greater:
LeBron: 3
Nash: 1
Here we see a visualization of all the playoff series Jokic, LeBron, Curry, Jordan, Nash, and Magic have played. From left to right it is Nikola Jokić in blue LeBron in brown, curry in yellow, Jordan in red, Nash, in green, and magic in purple.
And here we see the +8, +12, +15, +18, and +20 series.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Not sure, what does that matter? Are you thinking that he's not as good now as he once was? I'd agree.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:25 am
by durden_tyler
You're wrong, he's an all-time great for a reason and that includes raising a team. Perhaps not in level of Michael Jordan but that's another story.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:39 am
by MrBigShot
Yes. Lebron throughout his career warps the play style of the entire team (and his co stars) around him but he justifies it by putting his team in a position to contend.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:41 am
by NO-KG-AI
I think it’s less to do with his style of play and more to do with his impatience and inability for his teams to build continuity because they are always going through roster changes.
I do think it’s a slight factor.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:42 am
by NO-KG-AI
durden_tyler wrote:You're wrong, he's an all-time great for a reason and that includes raising a team. Perhaps not in level of Michael Jordan but that's another story.
I think this is his exact argument though. I think he’s a huge ceiling raiser for what it’s worth, but maybe not quite the very peak.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:48 am
by SHAQ32
taikibansei wrote:SHAQ32 wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Pre-2017 doesn't count then? As in nothing counts before Lebron turned 33?!
I mean, do you even understand why I'm asking? Or are you just getting defensive because LeBron's your favorite player?
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:55 am
by Ol Roy
I think LeBron is somewhat of a victim of his own abilities. He was such a tremendous rim finisher that he couldn't really put that aside. But imagine if he played more like Magic Johnson. I think, in the end, LeBron struck a pretty good balance (manifesting in the drive-and-kick) that probably made sense based on the personnel he played with. But the idea of him as more point-oriented player on offense is intriguing.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 2:55 am
by homecourtloss
taikibansei wrote:SHAQ32 wrote:zimpy27 wrote:Yes.
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2401174&p=114693217&hilit=Jokic+lebron+nash#p114693217
How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Pre-2017 doesn't count then? As in nothing counts before Lebron turned 33?!
not that it matters but if we're talking about +8 then it's...
15 of them.
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 3:03 am
by zimpy27
homecourtloss wrote:taikibansei wrote:SHAQ32 wrote:How many of those LeBron seasons are pre-2017?
Pre-2017 doesn't count then? As in nothing counts before Lebron turned 33?!
not that it matters but if we're talking about +8 then it's...
15 of them.
15 of the 22?
Re: Am I wrong for believing LeBron doesn't raise team offenses like other All-time Greats?
Posted: Sat Sep 6, 2025 3:07 am
by bushybrah_
Yes you are.
