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It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

If anything, LeBron has done a lot of work in securing the jobs of opposing GMs and FOs as verifiable proof that it is better to keep players on the court and let the guys that actually got a collegiate education sit there and work with the #s and salary to figure out the best team to put on the floor.

Thanks LeBron

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In response to his team failing to do what San Antonio and Golden State did, sure.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

Do we? Cleveland bungled the first seven years of his career. In a sport where players are judged based on their ability to win titles, when your team can't put you into position to legitimately contend, doing something to change your fortunes makes sense. Also, giving Lebron grief for losing the 07 Finals is fairly insane, just FWIW.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all.

Convenient.

Both in the sense of ignoring Lebron's title in 2020 and defining the relevant period as being after his prime anyway (minding he's been 35+ in all of the 2020s). No mention, then, that he'd just finishing making the Finals 9 times in 10 years and winning four titles over that span. That can't be relevant.

That's just not a reasonable or sensible approach to discussing him.

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

If anything, LeBron has done a lot of work in securing the jobs of opposing GMs and FOs as verifiable proof that it is better to keep players on the court and let the guys that actually got a collegiate education sit there and work with the #s and salary to figure out the best team to put on the floor.

Thanks LeBron

This OP is full of some pretty laughable logic, and is pretty easy to debunk. All around, not a very well thought out post on your part.

Not everyone lucks into an all-time great coach or GM. It's inane that we elevate those who get 'lucky' when they are drafted but admonish those who try to better their situation. Greater player agency is not a bad thing and when basketball careers are short I'm hardly going to criticise a player, any player, for trying to take control over their career.

And fancy having the audacity to create a thread about the 'homegrown' Kevin Durant Warriors.

Iwasawitness wrote:

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

If anything, LeBron has done a lot of work in securing the jobs of opposing GMs and FOs as verifiable proof that it is better to keep players on the court and let the guys that actually got a collegiate education sit there and work with the #s and salary to figure out the best team to put on the floor.

Thanks LeBron

This OP is full of some pretty laughable logic, and is pretty easy to debunk. All around, not a very well thought out post on your part.

If it was easy you would’ve debunked it.

Training Camps open in 23 days and man it cannot come quick enough lol these off-season threads man, whack.

picko wrote:Not everyone lucks into an all-time great coach or GM. It's inane that we elevate those who get 'lucky' when they are drafted but admonish those who try to better their situation. Greater player agency is not a bad thing and when basketball careers are short I'm hardly going to criticise a player, any player, for trying to take control over their career.

And fancy having the audacity to create a thread about the 'homegrown' Kevin Durant Warriors.

Was Kerr a lucky hire by the FO?

Was Pop a lucky hire by the FO?

Please give credit where credit is due

Godymas wrote:If it was easy you would’ve debunked it.

Okay, you asked for it.

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

First, we have what is one of my personal pet peeves on this site... lazy, out of context analysis.

LeBron is 1-2 vs Duncan? He's 1-3 vs Curry? No. He's 1-2 vs the Spurs. He's 1-3 vs the Warriors. If the Spurs and Warriors were truly "homegrown" as you suggest, there'd be credibility to the statement. However, that simply isn't the case. More on that in a moment.

Godymas wrote:If it was easy you would’ve debunked it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.[/quote]

Consistent lineups? In what regard? How are the 2007 and 2014 Spurs, for example, similar? They only feature two of the same starting players from the respective teams, and three overall. Otherwise, the teams couldn't be more different. And then you follow it up with an outright false statement. LeBron didn't try to stack the deck in his favor. The fact of the matter is that people who try to claim this don't know what stacking the deck actually means and I am 100% convinced that's the case. But what's even more bizarre is the follow up. He forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline? When has he EVER forced his teams to do such a thing? Name one time in the league history that LeBron went to the team and said "trade half the roster or I'm out". Hell, there aren't even many instances of his teams making large overhauls at the deadline. In fact, the only one I can think of is 2018, when Cleveland retooled nearly half their roster. Only problem here is that LeBron wasn't expecting Cleveland to do it, and if reports are true, he was caught off guard by it. Hell, one of the people to go were one of his best friends Wade, who LeBron is on record stating he wish he would've stayed with the team.

Godymas wrote:In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

So I actually need to partially take back what I said before. I'm sorry. You're actually 100% spot on with this entire part here. Yes, LeBron is not a good GM. He's never really understood why things like fit and chemistry matter in the grand scheme of things. He's also had a "jump the gun" approach, preferring to have win now pieces and not let the process play out for the sake of utilizing the most out of the time he has at that moment. The only problem here is that LeBron probably didn't realize he'd still be playing at this level for this long. And you can't really blame him for thinking this, but it once again adds credibility to the idea that he's not someone who is capable of thinking of the bigger picture and really

Godymas wrote:LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

This is again where you start to lose the plot, and I'm going to start talking a bit about why your point here doesn't make much sense in regards to "homegrown" talents or what have you.

The 2011 Mavericks were in fact brilliantly put together, but nothing about them was a homegrown team. Nothing. Dirk and Barea were the only "homegrown" talent on the team. Everyone else came to the team via free agency or trades. Shawn Marion? He wasn't a homegrown talent. He joined that team two years ago. Jason Kidd? I mean I guess he's technically homegrown, Dallas is where he started his career... more than ten years ago. This isn't like when LeBron returned to Cleveland the second time four years later. Kidd had been away from Dallas for more than a decade at this point, he wasn't a factor in them getting to the point where they were at that moment. Jason Terry was the Mavs second leading scorer in that finals series, and he isn't homegrown.

And then you have guys like Chandler, Peja, who didn't join the team until that year.

The 2011 Heat were just as much of a homegrown team as the 2011 Mavericks were.

Godymas wrote:In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

I think the lesson we need to be taking from here isn't that players shouldn't have a say in the process. We've had situations where players were able to at the very least help shape and mold a team into something brilliant. Michael Jordan was the one who convinced Krauss to go for Dennis Rodman. Larry Bird wanted his GM to go get Bill Walton, even though he was practically a one legged man at that point.

I think the lesson we need to take here is that the super team approach isn't the best (or even easiest) path to winning a title. Yeah it worked for LeBron on two separate occasions, but they still only happened in large part due to his capabilities as a player. Kevin Durant just isn't on that level. What LeBron can do for teams like that isn't something Durant can do. You call Devin Booker a career loser but he had at least been to the finals at that point already and even had some really great performances in that series. What was Kyrie Irving before LeBron joined his team? He wasn't anywhere close to leading Cleveland to a winning record and was seen as an underachiever. Irving was a career loser and LeBron made him a champion. I could've easily seen him doing the same with Devin Booker, if the circumstances were right.

Godymas wrote:LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work.

And this right here is where you REALLY lose the plot.

How well did letting GM's really go to work go for LeBron in his first seven years with Cleveland? It wasn't until LeBron took matters into his own hands and chose his own destination that he experienced the success he was looking for. Hell, going by your definition of homegrown teams, the 2007 Cavs were the closest to one for LeBron, and it was arguably the worst team he ever had go to a finals. This idea that we have to let teams build around homegrown talent and that's the best approach no matter what is just silly. Some teams don't have that luxury, some don't have that option. Sometimes it can work, sometimes it can't. The Wizards, for example, have been trying that for decades and I think the most they have to show for it is a second round exit in the playoffs on one occasion. Not every team can build a championship contender around the best players they got from drafts in the past 3-5 years. If you manage to luck out in the draft and get those kinds of players, then that's a different story. Life doesn't always play out that way and for LeBron's first seven years in Cleveland, it didn't.

And while we're at it, let's address your point about every champion this decade being homegrown teams shall we?

The 2025 Thunder aren't a very good example. Yes, they have quite a few players originating within the organization (most notably JWill and Chet), but their best player and MVP award winner Shai came from the Clippers via trade. Hell, the two offseason additions that ultimately got them to the next level, Caruso and Hartenstein, weren't homegrown talents either. And we can't ignore the fact that a lot of OKC's draft picks came from a historically bad trade.

Same thing with the 2023 Celtics. A lot of their homegrown talent came from a historically bad trade that ultimately worked out in their favor. Hell, they were getting high draft picks while still being a consistent playoff contender. They are a terrible example for the point you are trying to make.

After that you have the 2024 Denver Nuggets, who are the best example that you have of a home grown team. Only problem is... they had a historically easy title run, with weak opponents going into the finals and then their finals opponents were... an eight seed. Being homegrown had little to do with this, and in fact it had a lot more to do with luck.

2022 Warriors? Nope, they weren't a homegrown team. The majority of their players didn't start out with the Warriors and were recent additions. Sure they still had Curry, Klay and Draymond, but that was it as far as guys who originally started with the team. This was a very different squad from the ones who won the three previous championships.

2021 Bucks? Nope. Giannis and Middleton were the only players on that team who were originally drafted by them. Everyone else came from somewhere else.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as a homegrown team. If we're going to go by the actual definition of it, they don't exist. You're going to have players that you build around that originally started out with the team, and if that's what the definition actually is, then that means all of LeBron's championship winning teams except for the Lakers were homegrown. This is what happens when you make a lazy analysis that doesn't really dive into specifics. You're going to have holes in your logic.

Godymas wrote:Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

And this, right here, is where you pretty much lose any and all credibility and make your entire thread obsolete. You couldn't help but throw in another one of your digs at the bubble because, just like all the other times in the past, you need to remind us of this tired, played out and obviously false narrative. Yes, we get it, you think the 2020 Championship doesn't count. Well guess what? Most people disagree with you, and most people realize this is a very silly thing to think. The 2020 championship counts whether you like it or not. And guess what? The 2020 Lakers were about as far from being a homegrown team as they get. So you're wrong about every champion from this decade being homegrown.

If only a superstar would have gotten injured in 2002 for LeBron to be drafted to the franchise with the superstar and then that team draft a hall of famer in the 2nd round.

I've already imagined LeBron with Klay and Draymond all in their early-mid 20s and they would be incredible.

Adding Kevin Durant is homegrown now huh lol

picko wrote:Not everyone lucks into an all-time great coach or GM. It's inane that we elevate those who get 'lucky' when they are drafted but admonish those who try to better their situation. Greater player agency is not a bad thing and when basketball careers are short I'm hardly going to criticise a player, any player, for trying to take control over their career.

And fancy having the audacity to create a thread about the 'homegrown' Kevin Durant Warriors.

Once he was an UFA he made his own luck and had good luck mostly.

He always went for the microwave chips. It’s surprising that he even won 4 honestly. The problem with that strategy is that those chips will be one offs.

If you take all your picks and young players and trade them for another star it’s pretty much impossible to form a dynasty in that scenario and he easily could’ve been part of a dynasty if he just signed and stayed with one organization (after his first Cleveland stint).

wegotthabeet wrote:

picko wrote:Not everyone lucks into an all-time great coach or GM. It's inane that we elevate those who get 'lucky' when they are drafted but admonish those who try to better their situation. Greater player agency is not a bad thing and when basketball careers are short I'm hardly going to criticise a player, any player, for trying to take control over their career.

And fancy having the audacity to create a thread about the 'homegrown' Kevin Durant Warriors.

Once he was an UFA he made his own luck and had good luck mostly.

He always went for the microwave chips. It’s surprising that he even won 4 honestly. The problem with that strategy is that those chips will be one offs.

If you take all your picks and young players and trade them for another star it’s pretty much impossible to form a dynasty in that scenario and he easily could’ve been part of a dynasty if he just signed and stayed with one organization (after his first Cleveland stint).

Exactly. Miami rebuilt and met him in the finals.

James created situations and then people blame the situation for him having to leave so he doesn’t get stuck on a loser. It’s completely circular.

It can also never be overstated enough how he was coasting to finals in a weak east for the vast bulk of his career.

Can't we all just agree that LeBron is a pretty good player?

He is 1-3 against GSW because of Durant, not Curry.

tsherkin wrote:

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In response to his team failing to do what San Antonio and Golden State did, sure.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

Do we? Cleveland bungled the first seven years of his career. In a sport where players are judged based on their ability to win titles, when your team can't put you into position to legitimately contend, doing something to change your fortunes makes sense. Also, giving Lebron grief for losing the 07 Finals is fairly insane, just FWIW.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all.

Convenient.

Both in the sense of ignoring Lebron's title in 2020 and defining the relevant period as being after his prime anyway (minding he's been 35+ in all of the 2020s). No mention, then, that he'd just finishing making the Finals 9 times in 10 years and winning four titles over that span. That can't be relevant.

That's just not a reasonable or sensible approach to discussing him.

Good point about that 07 team. Worst team I have ever seen in the finals.

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work. Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

If anything, LeBron has done a lot of work in securing the jobs of opposing GMs and FOs as verifiable proof that it is better to keep players on the court and let the guys that actually got a collegiate education sit there and work with the #s and salary to figure out the best team to put on the floor.

Thanks LeBron

Criticizing LeBron for taking a pay cut to run off to Miami and play for a stacked team because he couldn't get past Boston is valid.

That said, LeBron was 1-1 against the Warriors when Golden State signed Kevin Durant. KD was the best player on the Dubs teams that were smashing LeBron's Cavaliers 2017 and 2018. So they ceased to be 'homegrown'. Keep in mind, the 2012 Thunder were 'homegrown', and they lost to LeBron's Heat in 5 games. So you're making some questionable assumptions and ignoring some relevant data.

LeBron 'homegrown' team was 0-1 against the Spurs. His Heat team was 1-1.

A pot head friend in college took his car to Jiffy Lube, and the technician jumped inside it and said "This is some homegrown right here". I wonder if his car that reeked off weed could have beat LeBron in the Finals.

Stan wrote:Adding Kevin Durant is homegrown now huh lol

If Curry/Green/Thompson didn’t became one of the greatest trios, you think KD would have joined? Isn’t that every team’s goal?

If a team like Denver or OKC or Houston (they absolutely are homegrown) had a top 10 player who wants to join their team, they’d be like “No we’re good?” It’d be laughable if they did.

benson13 wrote:Criticizing LeBron for taking a pay cut to run off to Miami and play for a stacked team because he couldn't get past Boston is valid.

No, it isn't.

Criticizing Lebron, who played with no other meaningful talent, for getting to a team with appropriate talent to face down Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen makes ZERO sense, particularly given how demonstrably useless Cleveland management was at putting appropriate talent around him.

Wallace_Wallace wrote:

Stan wrote:Adding Kevin Durant is homegrown now huh lol

If Curry/Green/Thompson didn’t became one of the greatest trios, you think KD would have joined? Isn’t that every team’s goal?

If a team like Denver or OKC or Houston (they absolutely are homegrown) had a top 10 player who wants to join their team, they’d be like “No we’re good?” It’d be laughable if they did.

It's not just KD wanted to join the Warriors lol Steph, Klay, Dray, and Iggy all jumped on a private jet to meet KD in the Hamptons and get down on their knees to beg and plead him to join forces after blowing a 3-1 lead to LeBron in the 2016 Finals.

Iwasawitness wrote:

Godymas wrote:If it was easy you would’ve debunked it.

Okay, you asked for it.

Godymas wrote:It just occurred to me that LeBron and Tim Duncan faced off 3 times in the finals and LeBron is 1-2

Obviously, everyone knows that LeBron is 1-3 vs. Curry in the finals, and a lot of people respect Curry greatly for it.

First, we have what is one of my personal pet peeves on this site... lazy, out of context analysis.

LeBron is 1-2 vs Duncan? He's 1-3 vs Curry? No. He's 1-2 vs the Spurs. He's 1-3 vs the Warriors. If the Spurs and Warriors were truly "homegrown" as you suggest, there'd be credibility to the statement. However, that simply isn't the case. More on that in a moment.

Godymas wrote:If it was easy you would’ve debunked it.

However, so many people want to give credit to LeBron for "player empowerment" and "LeGM" but the fact is that two organizations built a culture with a HoF coach and consistent lineups and are a combined 5-2 vs. LeBron in the finals. LeBron infamously tried to "stack the deck" in his favor, he forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline.

Consistent lineups? In what regard? How are the 2007 and 2014 Spurs, for example, similar? They only feature two of the same starting players from the respective teams, and three overall. Otherwise, the teams couldn't be more different. And then you follow it up with an outright false statement. LeBron didn't try to stack the deck in his favor. The fact of the matter is that people who try to claim this don't know what stacking the deck actually means and I am 100% convinced that's the case. But what's even more bizarre is the follow up. He forced teams to make insane overhauls at the deadline? When has he EVER forced his teams to do such a thing? Name one time in the league history that LeBron went to the team and said "trade half the roster or I'm out". Hell, there aren't even many instances of his teams making large overhauls at the deadline. In fact, the only one I can think of is 2018, when Cleveland retooled nearly half their roster. Only problem here is that LeBron wasn't expecting Cleveland to do it, and if reports are true, he was caught off guard by it. Hell, one of the people to go were one of his best friends Wade, who LeBron is on record stating he wish he would've stayed with the team.

Godymas wrote:In hindsight, LeBron might be worse than Jordan when it comes to being a GM. It's funny, because, if Jerry Krause let Jordan have the same level of control over the team, we'd probably see the same results. LeBron basically spent his whole career emulating what Jordan did during his Wizards years, which is, try and GM a franchise, and then put himself in and become superman when all else fails. Obviously, Jordan was much older when he tried this, but LeBron literally is the career definition of Wizards Jordan.

So I actually need to partially take back what I said before. I'm sorry. You're actually 100% spot on with this entire part here. Yes, LeBron is not a good GM. He's never really understood why things like fit and chemistry matter in the grand scheme of things. He's also had a "jump the gun" approach, preferring to have win now pieces and not let the process play out for the sake of utilizing the most out of the time he has at that moment. The only problem here is that LeBron probably didn't realize he'd still be playing at this level for this long. And you can't really blame him for thinking this, but it once again adds credibility to the idea that he's not someone who is capable of thinking of the bigger picture and really

Godymas wrote:LeBron also lost to the Mavericks with a similar team that was brilliantly GMed to get pieces around homegrown talents.

This is again where you start to lose the plot, and I'm going to start talking a bit about why your point here doesn't make much sense in regards to "homegrown" talents or what have you.

The 2011 Mavericks were in fact brilliantly put together, but nothing about them was a homegrown team. Nothing. Dirk and Barea were the only "homegrown" talent on the team. Everyone else came to the team via free agency or trades. Shawn Marion? He wasn't a homegrown talent. He joined that team two years ago. Jason Kidd? I mean I guess he's technically homegrown, Dallas is where he started his career... more than ten years ago. This isn't like when LeBron returned to Cleveland the second time four years later. Kidd had been away from Dallas for more than a decade at this point, he wasn't a factor in them getting to the point where they were at that moment. Jason Terry was the Mavs second leading scorer in that finals series, and he isn't homegrown.

And then you have guys like Chandler, Peja, who didn't join the team until that year.

The 2011 Heat were just as much of a homegrown team as the 2011 Mavericks were.

Godymas wrote:In a lot of ways we really need look at LeBron James impact in terms of "player empowerment" as a case study in "this is why we let GMs and FOs do what they do".

LeBron's haphazard approach spilled over to other superstars of that era, namely Kevin Durant, who thought he knew what he was doing when he formed a super team Brooklyn, and then he stupidly asks a trade to play with a career loser named Devin Booker, and then even stupidly he asks for Bradley Beal to be traded over? Durant didn't want Kenny Atkinson coaching him in Brooklyn? Like the track record speaks for itself.

I think the lesson we need to be taking from here isn't that players shouldn't have a say in the process. We've had situations where players were able to at the very least help shape and mold a team into something brilliant. Michael Jordan was the one who convinced Krauss to go for Dennis Rodman. Larry Bird wanted his GM to go get Bill Walton, even though he was practically a one legged man at that point.

I think the lesson we need to take here is that the super team approach isn't the best (or even easiest) path to winning a title. Yeah it worked for LeBron on two separate occasions, but they still only happened in large part due to his capabilities as a player. Kevin Durant just isn't on that level. What LeBron can do for teams like that isn't something Durant can do. You call Devin Booker a career loser but he had at least been to the finals at that point already and even had some really great performances in that series. What was Kyrie Irving before LeBron joined his team? He wasn't anywhere close to leading Cleveland to a winning record and was seen as an underachiever. Irving was a career loser and LeBron made him a champion. I could've easily seen him doing the same with Devin Booker, if the circumstances were right.

Godymas wrote:LeBron's inspiration to other superstars will go down as one of the biggest flops of the NBA. Every single champion this decade has come from homegrown teams that let the GMs really go to work.

And this right here is where you REALLY lose the plot.

How well did letting GM's really go to work go for LeBron in his first seven years with Cleveland? It wasn't until LeBron took matters into his own hands and chose his own destination that he experienced the success he was looking for. Hell, going by your definition of homegrown teams, the 2007 Cavs were the closest to one for LeBron, and it was arguably the worst team he ever had go to a finals. This idea that we have to let teams build around homegrown talent and that's the best approach no matter what is just silly. Some teams don't have that luxury, some don't have that option. Sometimes it can work, sometimes it can't. The Wizards, for example, have been trying that for decades and I think the most they have to show for it is a second round exit in the playoffs on one occasion. Not every team can build a championship contender around the best players they got from drafts in the past 3-5 years. If you manage to luck out in the draft and get those kinds of players, then that's a different story. Life doesn't always play out that way and for LeBron's first seven years in Cleveland, it didn't.

And while we're at it, let's address your point about every champion this decade being homegrown teams shall we?

The 2025 Thunder aren't a very good example. Yes, they have quite a few players originating within the organization (most notably JWill and Chet), but their best player and MVP award winner Shai came from the Clippers via trade. Hell, the two offseason additions that ultimately got them to the next level, Caruso and Hartenstein, weren't homegrown talents either. And we can't ignore the fact that a lot of OKC's draft picks came from a historically bad trade.

Same thing with the 2023 Celtics. A lot of their homegrown talent came from a historically bad trade that ultimately worked out in their favor. Hell, they were getting high draft picks while still being a consistent playoff contender. They are a terrible example for the point you are trying to make.

After that you have the 2024 Denver Nuggets, who are the best example that you have of a home grown team. Only problem is... they had a historically easy title run, with weak opponents going into the finals and then their finals opponents were... an eight seed. Being homegrown had little to do with this, and in fact it had a lot more to do with luck.

2022 Warriors? Nope, they weren't a homegrown team. The majority of their players didn't start out with the Warriors and were recent additions. Sure they still had Curry, Klay and Draymond, but that was it as far as guys who originally started with the team. This was a very different squad from the ones who won the three previous championships.

2021 Bucks? Nope. Giannis and Middleton were the only players on that team who were originally drafted by them. Everyone else came from somewhere else.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as a homegrown team. If we're going to go by the actual definition of it, they don't exist. You're going to have players that you build around that originally started out with the team, and if that's what the definition actually is, then that means all of LeBron's championship winning teams except for the Lakers were homegrown. This is what happens when you make a lazy analysis that doesn't really dive into specifics. You're going to have holes in your logic.

Godymas wrote:Also, I do not count the bubble at all. 2020 is the only NBA season where players got a free 3 month off-season before playing in the playoffs. It's complete nonsense, good for LeBron to take advantage of rest with his old Lakers team and get everybody rested it up. It's no coincidence that the other finals team (Miami) had so many veterans too like Jimmy, Jae Crowder, Andre Iguodala, Goran Dragic, etc.

And this, right here, is where you pretty much lose any and all credibility and make your entire thread obsolete. You couldn't help but throw in another one of your digs at the bubble because, just like all the other times in the past, you need to remind us of this tired, played out and obviously false narrative. Yes, we get it, you think the 2020 Championship doesn't count. Well guess what? Most people disagree with you, and most people realize this is a very silly thing to think. The 2020 championship counts whether you like it or not. And guess what? The 2020 Lakers were about as far from being a homegrown team as they get. So you're wrong about every champion from this decade being homegrown.

you said it was easy and proceeded to write an essay that I can take out in a few sentences.

It's funny how you only point out Curry and Duncan but don't point out that the same logic can be applied to LeBron No, the Cavaliers are 1-3 vs. the Warriors, NOT LeBron James. The Spurs are 1-1 with the Heat and 1-0 with the Cavaliers, but you made the very same mistake you attempted to criticize

Now in terms of your statement "consistent lineups" take a look at the 2013 Spurs team and the 2014 Spurs team, then take a look at the 2005 Spurs team and the 2007 Spurs team. That is consistent lineups, but you decided to try and call out the Spurs for changing their lineups without pointing out that LeBron changed franchises

Why are you hyper fixated on the 2007 Cavaliers when you can see that the 2009 Cavaliers had a massive overhaul and LeBron won an MVP? LeBron was able to go back to back on 60 win Cavs teams in 2009 and 2010 and you want to hyperfixate on the 2007 Cavs teams just because they lost to the Spurs? The Cavs did put in the work to give LeBron a team he was clearly capable of winning with, you don't win 60 games in a regular season with a terrible team. The overwhelming evidence is that you can clearly look at more championships won via amazing FOs and GMs than you can look at whatever "player empowerment stack the deck" method LeBron James has tried.

Also, you don't understand the term homegrown talent. Homegrown talent doesn't have to start with the team! SGA is 100% homegrown talent in OKC, just because he got there via a trade after his rookie year, just lol. Like Haliburton is also homegrown talent for the Pacers. Also homegrown talent doesn't mean the whole team! It means the stars/core! Everyone knows this. Technically Brook Lopez is homegrown talent for the 2021 Bucks because he came in, built with them, and completely changed his game to win a championship there. It's not about having someone in the building from day 1, it's about building the culture. LeBron tries to fake culture to every team he goes to and it blows up in his face. Every off season or trade deadline his teams try and force a bunch of guys to "make the magic happen" and it fails more often than it works, but LeBron puts on a cape and tries to "backpack these scrubs" (why are they always scrubs?). The 2021 Lakers is a great example of how LeBron fails to be a culture setter. That team should've won a ring but instead it imploded and was blown up for what? Because injuries derailed the team? What kind of terrible locker room is LeBron building.

So now that you understand the term homegrown talent, the 2022 Warriors made Wiggins into a good player. The majority of the 2022 Warriors was homegrown talent. Wiggins, Poole, Klay, Curry, Dray, Iguodala, GP2 (yes he is homegrown talent for the Warriors, the Warriors made him into a real NBA player), and Looney. It's kind of funny you really tried to say that team wasn't homegrown talent, you have no clue what you are talking about.