A sort of sociological question: clutch, choker... we all know it’s a fable we tell ourselves, right?

[Rubios]

Embiid is a loser because Kawhi’s Hail Mary went in.
Harden is a loser because of a Game 7 against the Warriors where his team went an inexplicable -and unrepeatable- 7/44 from three. He shot a miserable 2/13, but Trevor Ariza missed every shot he took (including twos), and Eric Gordon went 2/12. I get that James is the one to blame the most as he was the MVP, but still: it was the perfect storm, but in reverse.

This isn’t a defense of Harden or Embiid as I don’t particularly like either of them.
And of course, there are recurring patterns we can spot in players who seem to perform better or worse at the highest stakes.
-Although there's a in-depth study I once read that concluded that "clutch" is a construct that basically doesn't exist-.

I just wonder if, deep down, we all know and accept that these narratives are part of the drama and excitement of sports. But we also know they’re conventions that doesn't describe reality.

The player who makes or misses a buzzer beater is the exact same player. Making it or not doesn’t make him clutch or a choker. Some shots drop, others don’t.
Agree?

[Inigo Montoya]

If a guy is wide open in crunch time and he shoots an air ball, what would you call it?

[UcanUwill]

Well, obviously small details can make huge ramifications, but speaking about clutchness and chokeness, it is not a fable, because those are words that describes persons ability to handle pressure. Harden is not a choker cause he lost to the GSW, and Embiid is not a choker just cause he lost to Kawhi, there are far more history if we are talking about these two in particular, for us to know they will choke. They are far from one hit bombers.

Person can go for a penalty kick with no pressure and miss, and guy can be afraid beyond belief and hit, yes, missing one shot won't mean anything, but confidense and ability to stay calm is a human skill, and after higher sample size, guys confidence and ability to say call will start corelating with success, it is not a fable, it is simple human psychology. I watched entire decade of Spanoulis Euro ball, you can't tell me with straight face his cluchness was a statistical illusion of smth, it wasn't, guy was clutch, period. it aint a myth. Same can be said about NBA players as well I am pretty sure.

When we can call Harden game 7 stinker for 5 years straight, maybe it is real at this point?

[cupcakesnake]

If a guy is wide open in crunch time and he shoots an air ball, what would you call it?

A miss.
Good shooters hit over 50% of their wide-open jumpers, but they still miss. Airballs are a random phenomenon. Everyone shoots one here and there.

If I see a guy who struggles in crunch time with focus, execution, effort, or aggressiveness, I'm more open to an argument that the player struggles in those situations. Makes and misses are more random to me, but we build a narrative out of them.

[NO-KG-AI]

If a guy is wide open in crunch time and he shoots an air ball, what would you call it?

A miss.
Good shooters hit over 50% of their wide-open jumpers, but they still miss. Airballs are a random phenomenon. Everyone shoots one here and there.

If I see a guy who struggles in crunch time with focus, execution, effort, or aggressiveness, I'm more open to an argument that the player struggles in those situations. Makes and misses are more random to me, but we build a narrative out of them.

This. I also think some of the guys considered chokers, Embiid and Harden in this case, have styles of play that are less effective against the mix of top tier defense, ability to gameplan more in depth, and referees not being as tight with the whistle.

Playoff basketball isn’t like playing a different sport, but it is meaningfully different, and it does seem to effect guys with particular styles, and with more stubborn approaches more harshly.

[tamaraw08]

Well, obviously small details can make huge ramifications, but speaking about clutchness and chokeness, it is not a fable, because those are words that describes persons ability to handle pressure. Harden is not a choker cause he lost to the GSW, and Embiid is not a choker just cause he lost to Kawhi, there are far more history if we are talking about these two in particular, for us to know they will choke. They are far from one hit bombers.

Person can go for a penalty kick with no pressure and miss, and guy can be afraid beyond belief and hit, yes, missing one shot won't mean anything, but confidense and ability to stay calm is a human skill, and after higher sample size, guys confidence and ability to say call will start corelating with success, it is not a fable, it is simple human psychology. I watched entire decade of Spanoulis Euro ball, you can't tell me with straight face his cluchness was a statistical illusion of smth, it wasn't, guy was clutch, period. it aint a myth. Same can be said about NBA players as well I am pretty sure.

When we can call Harden game 7 stinker for 5 years straight, maybe it is real at this point?

Bingo, Embiid has a pretty bad %'s of like 5 elimination games too.

[hauntedcomputer]

Also propaganda and bias.
Kobe was notoriously well below average as a clutch shooter but he shot so many that he made some big ones that get replayed into a Mamba Mentality Myth.
Lebron's called a choker but he's above average as a clutch closer overall.

[Lalouie]

Embiid is a loser because Kawhi’s Hail Mary went in.
Harden is a loser because of a Game 7 against the Warriors where his team went an inexplicable -and unrepeatable- 7/44 from three. He shot a miserable 2/13, but Trevor Ariza missed every shot he took (including twos), and Eric Gordon went 2/12. I get that James is the one to blame the most as he was the MVP, but still: it was the perfect storm, but in reverse.

This isn’t a defense of Harden or Embiid as I don’t particularly like either of them.
And of course, there are recurring patterns we can spot in players who seem to perform better or worse at the highest stakes.
-Although there's a in-depth study I once read that concluded that "clutch" is a construct that basically doesn't exist-.

I just wonder if, deep down, we all know and accept that these narratives are part of the drama and excitement of sports. But we also know they’re conventions that doesn't describe reality.

The player who makes or misses a buzzer beater is the exact same player. Making it or not doesn’t make him clutch or a choker. Some shots drop, others don’t.
Agree?

clutch exists because THE GAME feeds into it.

in other words don't give me stats showing that playerX has better clutch numbers than bird or mj because practically and in-game speaking,,,,,,,,the ball will find it's way into birds/mj's hands. everyone on the floor, bench, the arena and even the guy you say has better numbers knows where that ball is going and even HE will defer to bird/mj

and choker is a real thing as well. or do you want ewing at the ft line or are you going to depend on him to do the right thing

[NZB2323]

This just isn’t true. Look at how many game winning shots Robert Horry has made.

Embiid also scored 17.6 ppg against the Raptors on 37% shooting and has never made the conference finals. When Tatum dropped 51 points on Embiid in game 7 on 74.6 TS% Embiid had 15 points on 36.3 TS%. Harden had 9 points on 37.9 TS%.

Harden I have in my top 30 along with Karl Malone. Both played better in the regular season. The mailman doesn’t deliver on Sundays and he missed 2 crucial free throws in the finals, and Stockton was typically the closer for the Jazz hitting game winning shots. Karl Malone had a TS% of 57.7% in the regular season and 52.6% in the playoffs.

[Lockdown504090]

Also propaganda and bias.
Kobe was notoriously well below average as a clutch shooter but he shot so many that he made some big ones that get replayed into a Mamba Mentality Myth.
Lebron's called a choker but he's above average as a clutch closer overall.

that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. It just means fans and writers are dumb. Idk how anyone has played any game at any level with stakes and not felt the difference between the first quarter and the end of the game

[boomershadow]

How many game winners did Tyrese Haliburton hit just this playoffs??

It is probably just coincidence

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Narratives are sometimes made unfairly, but I wouldn't go to the other extreme and claim there's no such thing as clutch, choking, nerves etc. To claim that is to have never participated in competition yourself, because if you have, you KNOW there's a human element to it that affects performance, we aren't robots.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

If a guy is wide open in crunch time and he shoots an air ball, what would you call it?

A miss.
Good shooters hit over 50% of their wide-open jumpers, but they still miss. Airballs are a random phenomenon. Everyone shoots one here and there.

If I see a guy who struggles in crunch time with focus, execution, effort, or aggressiveness, I'm more open to an argument that the player struggles in those situations. Makes and misses are more random to me, but we build a narrative out of them.

This. I also think some of the guys considered chokers, Embiid and Harden in this case, have styles of play that are less effective against the mix of top tier defense, ability to gameplan more in depth, and referees not being as tight with the whistle.

Playoff basketball isn’t like playing a different sport, but it is meaningfully different, and it does seem to effect guys with particular styles, and with more stubborn approaches more harshly.

This is also a good point. I think the midrange matters a lot more in the playoffs than people give it credit for, especially in the modern era. Don't even have to go back, just look at this past season, SGA the best midrange player in the game was a huge catalyst for OKC.

You don't want average players settling for midrange J's, but you want your stars to be able to operate anywhere on the floor because it ensures they get the most shots and the highest quality of shots, when facing the toughest defenses.

[Lalouie]

Also propaganda and bias.
Kobe was notoriously well below average as a clutch shooter but he shot so many that he made some big ones that get replayed into a Mamba Mentality Myth.
Lebron's called a choker but he's above average as a clutch closer overall.

the prob is, your base premise is clutch and choke have to always be there and you can will it.

so your guy,,,you think he has better numbers, but once it gets known then defenses will collapse on him AND THEN let's see how he does. and there's bearing the weight and responsibility of being THE GUY.

all you think about is numbers and you don't see that it's all upstairs>the mindset
THAT'S the separation

[Maxthirty]

Also propaganda and bias.
Kobe was notoriously well below average as a clutch shooter but he shot so many that he made some big ones that get replayed into a Mamba Mentality Myth.
Lebron's called a choker but he's above average as a clutch closer overall.

the prob is, your base premise is clutch and choke have to always be there and you can will it.

so your guy,,,you think he has better numbers, but once it gets known then defenses will collapse on him AND THEN let's see how he does. and there's bearing the weight and responsibility of being THE GUY.

all you think about is numbers and you don't see that it's all upstairs>the mindset
THAT'S the separation

You just said a whole lot of nothing. The mental gymnastics are insane lol

[theforumblue]

clutch may not be real, but choking is.

[threethehardway]

No, most fans think this stuff is real.

Sports fanaticism is the what middle class people use to cope with the disenchantment of everyday life.

Before we had the gods and now most people truly don't believe in a world full of spirits and supernatural creatures.

Most people don't truly care about their place of origin anymore or their ethnic group now either.

So they replace their sense of wonder and collective struggle with team sports, which mostly consist of making stuff up about people they don't know outside of the 2 hours they show up on their TV screen playing with balls.

Team sports is narrative cope for middle class people. You don't know what you are doing with your life, but you know the game will be on at 8PM and you are going to represent your team and city because that's all you have for a coherent narrative.


Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, LeBron, these debates are the replacement for debating the merits of the gods vs. the duty of royalty and the citizenry in an ancient city state.

You can gauge the intelligence of a nation by their sports debate.

If they talk about stats and on the court play vs. psychological arm chair BS about chokers and losers, then you know the type of people you are dealing with.

A player can't simply just not be good enough in the moment but dominate the entire game or even the season, they have to be a choker. A player can show up short multiple times but have one good moment in the last 3 minutes and their clutch.

It's irrational, illogical, biased and make zero sense but people do it because building narratives is what humanity is best at.

The entire sports industry isn't fueled by competition and athletes but the make-believe of fans that have nothing else to hold to for a collective identity and even that is eroding due to how sports media is delivered and how pundits are bigger than athletes.

So now we just have narratives we retell each other and nobody checks reality because nobody wants to let go of their sports.

[Ken D]

In any workplace there are people who step up in high pressure moments and people who try to hide.

During stressful times there are those who rise to the occasion and those who crumble.

Some people want to lead and confront pressure head on, some want to follow that leader, some want to just do as little as possible and will be nowhere to be found when times get tough.

These are not imaginary things or narrative driven made up things. They are real and exist everywhere in life and the NBA is no different.

[Black Jack]

Explain Robert Horry then.

[rand]

Oh yeah, that one game is totally the extent of Harden's history of choking in the playoffs.