How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

[Top10alltime]

I mean genuinely this guy has a case for best player every year from 2021-25 (he is EASILY the best in at least 2 of those years). Stop disrespecting bro he deserves to be put in that top 15 at this point. This is one of the greatest stretches we will ever see from a player ever. Stop disrespecting Jokic' name. For all of the talk about his defense he's still a good PnR defender and still a + at defense (only thing is his bad rim protection).

Now combine that with a top 6-7 offensive player ever (Literally a top 10 scorer and playmaker ever), you have a top 15 player all-time. Stop putting disrespect on Jokic name, he might be top 5 by the time he retires.

[DimesandKnicks]

If you think criticizing his defenses is “disrespecting” him than you aren’t going to understand why some people aren’t putting him in their top 15

[Blame Rasho]

Joker is a mofo, likely the best big man passer ever, 3 time MVP, but once you start talking about top 15, top 10, etc… it becomes about what you don’t do rather than what you do.. do. Moses Malone, a 3 time MVP is often forgotten in all time discussions. Why? Well because of the things he didn’t do.

[bonita_the_frog]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

[Stan]

Can someone clarify if OP wants us to stop putting disrespect on Jokic's name? He didn't make that clear in the OP.

[TerryTate]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

This right here.
Does Jokic even surpass Larry Legend??? IMO no.

[Stan]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.

[bonita_the_frog]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.

I didn't say "elite defender", I said "elite 2-way player", because he was 3-time All-Defensive and really even better than that if you watch him. Total genius at both ends.

Despite not jumping, he even blocked shots, 0.8 blocks for his career including highs of 1.2 and 1.0.
Also averaged 1.7 steals per game for his career including highs of 2.0 (twice).
And he wasn't one of those gamble defenders, he was a smart on-ball defender AND he was roughhouse.

[TerryTate]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Claiming Bird was an "elite" defender is ludicrous.

Maybe "Elite" is a strong word, but he was still three time all defensive second team (3 years in a row).
Saying he wasn't good at D is also a big stretch

[Infinite Llamas]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Cam Thomas wasn’t elite 2 way but you once stanned him?

[Top10alltime]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread....

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

[JShuttlesworth]

Jokic will never reach Giannis level.

OP's head probably exploded when he saw this

[Whopper_Sr]

2023-2025 defensive xRAPM (3 seasons):

Jokic: -2.2/-2.5/-2.4
Giannis: -2.2/-1.7/-1.8

Bam: -2.7/-2.4/-1.9
Draymond: -3.5/-4.7/-4.4
Gobert: -3.5/-2.7/-3.5
AD: -3.3/-3.8/-3.5
Wemby (2 seasons): -4.2/-4.8
(Bonus) Caruso: -3.9/-3.2/-5.5

[Calvin Klein]

here we go again...

we can't have nice things.

[bonita_the_frog]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread....

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Jokic doesn't need respect, he's already had enough.
Not everyone has to respect Jokic, and why isn't Jokic scoring 30+ppg?
His teams aren't talented enough for him to rely on his passing to win, so why isn't he scoring more?
All that shooting ability and he's only averaged above 26.4ppg twice, 27.1 in 2021-22 and 29.6 last season.
With all those moves, and without a great supporting cast, he should be leading the league in scoring...
Lazy defender and lazy scorer.

[KGtabake]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

You can't be serious... Giannis isn't elite two way player, he isn't elite on either end. Also this thread was not about Giannis, so do not derail the thread...

Giannis was never a top tier ATG defender, in the two traits he can play defensively only, he isn't even elite (rim protection and roaming). Funny.


Jokic gaps Giannis, the amount he does is not even funny. It's been like this since 2021 where Jokic has had an argument for best in the world. Stop glazing Giannis and disrespecting Jokic.

Stop talking basketball mate. Go watch cricket or something else.

Ps. On the thread: Jokic will be top10 when all is said and done. So will Giannis.

[dhsilv2]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Bird wasn't remotely an elite defender. Solid for sure, but he had huge weaknesses and mchale would almost always have to guard anyone with elite foot speed at the 3 or 4 while they moved bird off those guys. Bird and Jokic actually play defensive very similarly.

[dhsilv2]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

This right here.
Does Jokic even surpass Larry Legend??? IMO no.

Bird is almost always a top 10 guy, OP is asking about top 15. He doesn't need to pass Bird.

[azcatz11]

I only respect elite 2-way players, so Jokic will never make it onto my list.
Jokic will never reach Giannis level.
For the last 6 years, Giannis has averaged 29.9 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.0 assists, .575 field, and been one of the very best defenders in the NBA.

And even while lazing around defensively, Jokic never even scored 30ppg.
GIannis 2024-25 = 30.4 points, 11.9 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .601 fielding
Giannis 2023-24 = 30.4 points, 11.5 rebounds, 6.5 assists, .611 fielding

And Jokic's lack of athleticism is no excuse.
Larry Bird was not athletic, and he was still an elite 2-way player.

Cam Thomas wasn’t elite 2 way but you once stanned him?

That has never been proven

[Lockdown504090]

2023-2025 defensive xRAPM (3 seasons):

Jokic: -2.2/-2.5/-2.4
Giannis: -2.2/-1.7/-1.8

Bam: -2.7/-2.4/-1.9
Draymond: -3.5/-4.7/-4.4
Gobert: -3.5/-2.7/-3.5
AD: -3.3/-3.8/-3.5
Wemby (2 seasons): -4.2/-4.8
(Bonus) Caruso: -3.9/-3.2/-5.5

I dont think this is a good way to measure defense.... respectfully. you have to consider versatility and scheme. Im looking at some playoff metrics regarding jokic because i do think there are schemes hes quite good in, but i dont quite understand what im looking at.

https://www.nbarapm.com/player/Nikola_Jokic

I think looking at playoffs is way different because of the level of strategy that goes into it.