RealGM

With debates over who deserves to make the hall of fame, I think a thread is worthy of what the Hall of Fame standards actually are based on actual history. I understand people say that the bar is very low, and the basketball bar is lower than other sports, but let's actually see what the benchmark really is.

Generally, it is well regarded that the weakest NBA players to make the HOF in the modern era (since 1980) are Mitch Richmond, Mo Cheeks and Michael Cooper. So let's actually look at their accolades as a benchmark.

Richmond - 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA 2nd team, 2x all-NBA 3rd team, won ROY, part of the 1996 Olympic gold medal team, scored over 20,000 points (53rd all-time in points)

Cheeks - 4x all-star, 4x all-NBA defensive first team, NBA champion, 7th all-time in steals (considered one of the best defenders of his era).

Cooper - DPOY, 5x all-NBA first team, 3x all-NBA second team, 5x NBA Champion.

Remember, some great players like Amare, Kemp, Kevin Johnson, Laimbeer, Sheed etc. have not made the hall of fame yet despite being retired for a while.

So when making threads about who deserves to get in the HOF, let's actually look at the historical standards.

Based on the above, which current players that are not retired should make it?

I've already established this. It's the Joe Johnson-DeMar DeRozan HoF line. You can read about it here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2434264

However, to summarize, DeMar DeRozan is the floor for the classic HoF player, and what differentiates him from Joe Johnson is the impact he's had on the culture of basketball, the games he's played internationally, the longevity, the all time records, plus a bump in more meaningful accolades when you stack it next to Joe Johnson.

Godymas wrote:I've already established this. It's the Joe Johnson-DeMar DeRozan HoF line. You can read about it here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2434264

However, to summarize, DeMar DeRozan is the floor for the classic HoF player, and what differentiates him from Joe Johnson is the impact he's had on the culture of basketball, the games he's played internationally, the longevity, the all time records, plus a bump in more meaningful accolades when you stack it next to Joe Johnson.

Yes, I agree. I think what helps Derozan in his longevity and rarely getting injured.

He's already top 28 all-time in scoring and likely ends up top 10-15 all-time in scoring which makes it almost impossible to leave him out, despite him being an overrated player. Based on the Richmond baseline already set, Derozan exceeds it because unlike Richmond who was 53rd all-time in points, Derozan will be top 15.

Cheeks as I said is another borderline guy, but his championship and elite defensive accolades, being among the top in all-time steals, gave him the edge. The average fan doesn't value defense as much as they should.

TheGeneral99 wrote:With debates over who deserves to make the hall of fame, I think a thread is worthy of what the Hall of Fame standards actually are based on actual history. I understand people say that the bar is very low, and the basketball bar is lower than other sports, but let's actually see what the benchmark really is.

Generally, it is well regarded that the weakest NBA players to make the HOF in the modern era (since 1980) are Mitch Richmond and Mo Cheeks. So let's actually look at their accolades as a benchmark.

Richmond - 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA 2nd team, 2x all-NBA 3rd team, won ROY, part of the 1996 Olympic gold medal team, scored over 20,000 points (53rd all-time in points)

Cheeks - 4x all-star, 4x all-NBA defensive first team, NBA champion, 7th all-time in steals (considered one of the best defenders of his era).

Remember, some great players like Amare, Kemp, Kevin Johnson, Laimbeer, Sheed etc. have not made the hall of fame yet despite being retired for a while.

So when making threads about who deserves to get in the HOF, let's actually look at the historical standards.

Based on the above, which current players that are not retired should make it?

This is me being a broken record so apologies to all who are tired of hearing me:

People need to remember that halls of fame are not inherently about competitive greatness, let alone granular achievement within a single competitive league. The Hall of Fame that popularized the concept in the US is Hall of Fame for Great Americans, whose first bust for the enshrined was Horace Mann who, just to save folks the click, wasn't in there for playing, coaching, or contributing to a sport.

So what we always have to keep in mind is that the unifying theme behind halls of fame is storytelling. For every inductee, there's a human story at the heart of it.

I emphasize this to sports fans, because I think at least American sports fans tend to be shaped in thought by the National Baseball Hall of Fame (of Cooperstown, NY), which ended up fixating on granular little milestones (like 3000 hits) and introducing persnickety little unofficial rules (don't vote for a guy on the first ballot unless he's perfect) that obviously weren't a part of non-sports Halls.

While we can disagree on whether the baseball Hall's voters (Baseball Writers' Association of America, or BBWAA) have a good approach or not, but what I think we all need to understand is that the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame (of Springfield, MA) has a very different relationship to the NBA compared to what the Cooperstown hall does to the MLB.

While the Cooperstown hall came before the Naismith, Cooperstown came decades after the NL & AL joined together into the MLB to dominate the game from the top, whereas Naismith was founded at a time when the NBA was still getting its sea legs.

This means that Cooperstown was in many ways built to honor the MLB above all, whereas Naismith was built to speak to the global embrace of the game Naismith launched out of Springfield.

It also means that focusing on granular achievement has always been less of a focus for Naismith than for Cooperstown. Where BBWAA got into habit of agreeing to benchmarks as you describe, and then just writing whatever human story happen to be attached to the bat that hit the ball, I'd say the Naismith has kept a focus much more on storytelling in service of the game as a popular success.

So for example, as strange as it sounds, I'm pretty confident that Naismith voters actually thought about the whole "Run TMC" thing when they voted in all 3 guys (Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin). If you go to the Hall's online entry for Richmond, for example, you'll see the first sentence is:

A member of the famous "Run TMC".

Let me say here, as someone who likes to think he has a handle on how Naismith voters tend to focus on narrative, even I was surprised how much focus was given to that particular narrative because the "Run TMC" nickname only came about during the '90-91 season, and Richmond was traded that off-season. The trio only ever played 2 years together, and peaked as a 44 win team that managed to get to the 2nd round.

So, what exactly was Run TMC famous for? The basketball answer would point to the run & gun style of play coach/GM Don Nelson had them play, but honestly, I think it was mostly just about people liking the Run TMC name a lot more than Nelson seemed to believe in their ability to win basketball games. The fact that it was based on hip hop group Run DMC did a lot of the work there up front, and the fact that 'Run' was so on the nose for how the trio played allowed it to stick in people's minds.

Given this, I don't actually think it's wrong to say that the Naismith has gotten a little wacky about the narrative hunting - Run TMC is more of a marketing term than an story, do we really need to canonize that? - and it's quite reasonable to wish the Naismith did things differently, but it does mean that seeking to identify the Benchmark is a fool's errand. There's nothing there to find.

Doctor MJ wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:With debates over who deserves to make the hall of fame, I think a thread is worthy of what the Hall of Fame standards actually are based on actual history. I understand people say that the bar is very low, and the basketball bar is lower than other sports, but let's actually see what the benchmark really is.

Generally, it is well regarded that the weakest NBA players to make the HOF in the modern era (since 1980) are Mitch Richmond and Mo Cheeks. So let's actually look at their accolades as a benchmark.

Richmond - 6x all-star, 3x all-NBA 2nd team, 2x all-NBA 3rd team, won ROY, part of the 1996 Olympic gold medal team, scored over 20,000 points (53rd all-time in points)

Cheeks - 4x all-star, 4x all-NBA defensive first team, NBA champion, 7th all-time in steals (considered one of the best defenders of his era).

Remember, some great players like Amare, Kemp, Kevin Johnson, Laimbeer, Sheed etc. have not made the hall of fame yet despite being retired for a while.

So when making threads about who deserves to get in the HOF, let's actually look at the historical standards.

Based on the above, which current players that are not retired should make it?

This is me being a broken record so apologies to all who are tired of hearing me:

People need to remember that halls of fame are not inherently about competitive greatness, let alone granular achievement within a single competitive league. The Hall of Fame that popularized the concept in the US is Hall of Fame for Great Americans, whose first bust for the enshrined was Horace Mann who, just to save folks the click, wasn't in there for playing, coaching, or contributing to a sport.

So what we always have to keep in mind is that the unifying theme behind halls of fame is storytelling. For every inductee, there's a human story at the heart of it.

I emphasize this to sports fans, because I think at least American sports fans tend to be shaped in thought by the National Baseball Hall of Fame (of Cooperstown, NY), which ended up fixating on granular little milestones (like 3000 hits) and introducing persnickety little unofficial rules (don't vote for a guy on the first ballot unless he's perfect) that obviously weren't a part of non-sports Halls.

While we can disagree on whether the baseball Hall's voters (Baseball Writers' Association of America, or BBWAA) have a good approach or not, but what I think we all need to understand is that the Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame (of Springfield, MA) has a very different relationship to the NBA compared to what the Cooperstown hall does to the MLB.

While the Cooperstown hall came before the Naismith, Cooperstown came decades after the NL & AL joined together into the MLB to dominate the game from the top, whereas Naismith was founded at a time when the NBA was still getting its sea legs.

This means that Cooperstown was in many ways built to honor the MLB above all, whereas Naismith was built to speak to the global embrace of the game Naismith launched out of Springfield.

It also means that focusing on granular achievement has always been less of a focus for Naismith than for Cooperstown. Where BBWAA got into habit of agreeing to benchmarks as you describe, and then just writing whatever human story happen to be attached to the bat that hit the ball, I'd say the Naismith has kept a focus much more on storytelling in service of the game as a popular success.

So for example, as strange as it sounds, I'm pretty confident that Naismith voters actually thought about the whole "Run TMC" thing when they voted in all 3 guys (Tim Hardaway, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin). If you go to the Hall's online entry for Richmond, for example, you'll see the first sentence is:

A member of the famous "Run TMC".

Let me say here, as someone who likes to think he has a handle on how Naismith voters tend to focus on narrative, even I was surprised how much focus was given to that particular narrative because the "Run TMC" nickname only came about during the '90-91 season, and Richmond was traded that off-season. The trio only ever played 2 years together, and peaked as a 44 win team that managed to get to the 2nd round.

So, what exactly was Run TMC famous for? The basketball answer would point to the run & gun style of play coach/GM Don Nelson had them play, but honestly, I think it was mostly just about people liking the Run TMC name a lot more than Nelson seemed to believe in their ability to win basketball games. The fact that it was based on hip hop group Run DMC did a lot of the work there up front, and the fact that 'Run' was so on the nose for how the trio played allowed it to stick in people's minds.

Given this, I don't actually think it's wrong to say that the Naismith has gotten a little wacky about the narrative hunting - Run TMC is more of a marketing term than an story, do we really need to canonize that? - and it's quite reasonable to wish the Naismith did things differently, but it does mean that seeking to identify the Benchmark is a fool's errand. There's nothing there to find.

I agree with a lot of your points here about not hiperfixating on relatively arbitrary benchmark/cutoffs of all stars/all nba/rings/points totals etc

I even would go as far as saying that while the hall of fame is nba centered, it actually is disproportionately set to favour some specific non nba inductees compared to nba ones, namely nba coaches vs ncaa coaches, the contrast is quite stark as to suggest is a lot harder as far as achievemts go to make the hall as a nba coach

The standards are inconsistent. There are bench players from the 60s Celtics who made it. Michael Cooper, who never made an all-star team or all-NBA team, won it because he won 5 championships with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, and he made all-defensive teams, and won DPOTY in 1987, when Hakeem was in the league.

I know blocks and steals aren’t everything, but Hakeem averaged 1.9 steals and 3.4 blocks while protecting the rim, and Cooper averaged 1.0 steals, and 0.5 blocks while denying the ball. In Hakeem’s rookie year, the Rockets went from 17th to 4th defensively. The first year Cooper received playing time for the Lakers, they went from 10th to 9th defensively. When he left the Lakers in 91, they went from 8th to 5th defensively and made the finals. When Hakeem left the Rockets in 02, they went from 17th to 29th defensively.

If Cooper makes it, why not Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Caruso, Tony Allen, Rondo, and Marcus Smart?

If Mitch Richmond made the hall of fame, why not Joe Johnson?

If KC Jones made the HOF, why not Iggy?

NZB2323 wrote:The standards are inconsistent. There are bench players from the 60s Celtics who made it. Michael Cooper, who never made an all-star team or all-NBA team, won it because he won 5 championships with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, and he made all-defensive teams, and won DPOTY in 1987, when Hakeem was in the league.

I know blocks and steals aren’t everything, but Hakeem averaged 1.9 steals and 3.4 blocks while protecting the rim, and Cooper averaged 1.0 steals, and 0.5 blocks while denying the ball. In Hakeem’s rookie year, the Rockets went from 17th to 4th defensively. The first year Cooper received playing time for the Lakers, they went from 10th to 9th defensively. When he left the Lakers in 91, they went from 8th to 5th defensively and made the finals. When Hakeem left the Rockets in 02, they went from 17th to 29th defensively.

If Cooper makes it, why not Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Caruso, Tony Allen, Rondo, and Marcus Smart?

If Mitch Richmond made the hall of fame, why not Joe Johnson?

If KC Jones made the HOF, why not Iggy?

To piggy back from here specifically, and while noting that I'm not looking to claim there's absolute consistency across generations, I do think it becomes a lot less mysterious when you focus on the storytelling, and the most basic part of that is the throughline of being on dynasties. Yup, there's a clear tendency to include role players from the most successful teams, and it's fine to disagree with this, but it's what they're doing.

Why not X? Most of the guys you're mentioning aren't eligible for the Hall yet, so you're not actually alleging all that much inconsistency necessarily. I'd certainly expect Iggy & Jrue to make the Hall down the road. Rondo may well make it too for similar reasons.

I don't expect Allen or Smart to make the Hall, and would note they won no chips and had specific ceiling concerns. Allen's defining career moment on the national stage is arguably the Warriors deciding not to guard him, while the story of the Tatum-Brown-Smart Celtics becoming a champion has getting rid of Smart as a step along the way.

Joe Johnson it will be interesting to see if he gets in or not, and if you're just talking basketball accolades, understandable why you juxtapose him with Richmond, but I don't think "Iso Joe" is going to help Johnson the way "Run TMC" helped Richmond, and so that makes things just a bit harder for him.

EDIT, realized I didn't talk about 2 other guys who haven't been in the league that long, and so we generally wouldn't expect to know if they'll be HOF worthy.

I'll be surprised if Caruso gets into the Hall. You said bench guys got into the Hall, and while I might ask you exactly how you define a "bench guy" to come to that conclusion, I don't think there is any player who played the kind of limited minutes Caruso has played who has gotten in previously. If Caruso gets in, it will be an eyebrow-raising thing.

For White, time will tell, but I'd say he's at risk for just perpetually getting shut out of the limelight specifically behind teammate Jaylen Brown, despite the fact that I think White's generally the guy better suited to being valuable on champion-level teams. While it's possible they both could get in, the fact that the Celtic championship team will probably already have 4 HOFers on it (Tatum, Brown, Al, Jrue) will probably mean White will have to break out more than he already has to make the Hall.

(Incidentally I wouldn't call Brown a lock yet either, but I'd say that perception-wise, he's on pace to become seen as a Hall-level guy.)

how does it smell

Doctor MJ wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:The standards are inconsistent. There are bench players from the 60s Celtics who made it. Michael Cooper, who never made an all-star team or all-NBA team, won it because he won 5 championships with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, and he made all-defensive teams, and won DPOTY in 1987, when Hakeem was in the league.

I know blocks and steals aren’t everything, but Hakeem averaged 1.9 steals and 3.4 blocks while protecting the rim, and Cooper averaged 1.0 steals, and 0.5 blocks while denying the ball. In Hakeem’s rookie year, the Rockets went from 17th to 4th defensively. The first year Cooper received playing time for the Lakers, they went from 10th to 9th defensively. When he left the Lakers in 91, they went from 8th to 5th defensively and made the finals. When Hakeem left the Rockets in 02, they went from 17th to 29th defensively.

If Cooper makes it, why not Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Caruso, Tony Allen, Rondo, and Marcus Smart?

If Mitch Richmond made the hall of fame, why not Joe Johnson?

If KC Jones made the HOF, why not Iggy?

To piggy back from here specifically, and while noting that I'm not looking to claim there's absolute consistency across generations, I do think it becomes a lot less mysterious when you focus on the storytelling, and the most basic part of that is the throughline of being on dynasties. Yup, there's a clear tendency to include role players from the most successful teams, and it's fine to disagree with this, but it's what they're doing.

Why not X? Most of the guys you're mentioning aren't eligible for the Hall yet, so you're not actually alleging all that much inconsistency necessarily. I'd certainly expect Iggy & Jrue to make the Hall down the road. Rondo may well make it too for similar reasons.

I don't expect Allen or Smart to make the Hall, and would note they won no chips and had specific ceiling concerns. Allen's defining career moment on the national stage is arguably the Warriors deciding not to guard him, while the story of the Tatum-Brown-Smart Celtics becoming a champion has getting rid of Smart as a step along the way.

Joe Johnson it will be interesting to see if he gets in or not, and if you're just talking basketball accolades, understandable why you juxtapose him with Richmond, but I don't think "Iso Joe" is going to help Johnson the way "Run TMC" helped Richmond, and so that makes things just a bit harder for him.

EDIT, realized I didn't talk about 2 other guys who haven't been in the league that long, and so we generally wouldn't expect to know if they'll be HOF worthy.

I'll be surprised if Caruso gets into the Hall. You said bench guys got into the Hall, and while I might ask you exactly how you define a "bench guy" to come to that conclusion, I don't think there is any player who played the kind of limited minutes Caruso has played who has gotten in previously. If Caruso gets in, it will be an eyebrow-raising thing.

For White, time will tell, but I'd say he's at risk for just perpetually getting shut out of the limelight specifically behind teammate Jaylen Brown, despite the fact that I think White's generally the guy better suited to being valuable on champion-level teams. While it's possible they both could get in, the fact that the Celtic championship team will probably already have 4 HOFers on it (Tatum, Brown, Al, Jrue) will probably mean White will have to break out more than he already has to make the Hall.

(Incidentally I wouldn't call Brown a lock yet either, but I'd say that perception-wise, he's on pace to become seen as a Hall-level guy.)

Playoffs MPG:

KC Jones: 23.8
Frank Ramsey: 24.4
Caruso: 24.2
Cooper: 28.2
Ginobili: 27.9
Rodman: 28.3
Iggy: 29.8

Caruso already has 2 championships and the Thunder are the favorites to repeat, with a young team and lots of assets. And if the Thunder move on from him he could add value to any contender. He can probably end his career with 4 championships.

NZB2323 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

NZB2323 wrote:The standards are inconsistent. There are bench players from the 60s Celtics who made it. Michael Cooper, who never made an all-star team or all-NBA team, won it because he won 5 championships with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, and he made all-defensive teams, and won DPOTY in 1987, when Hakeem was in the league.

I know blocks and steals aren’t everything, but Hakeem averaged 1.9 steals and 3.4 blocks while protecting the rim, and Cooper averaged 1.0 steals, and 0.5 blocks while denying the ball. In Hakeem’s rookie year, the Rockets went from 17th to 4th defensively. The first year Cooper received playing time for the Lakers, they went from 10th to 9th defensively. When he left the Lakers in 91, they went from 8th to 5th defensively and made the finals. When Hakeem left the Rockets in 02, they went from 17th to 29th defensively.

If Cooper makes it, why not Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Caruso, Tony Allen, Rondo, and Marcus Smart?

If Mitch Richmond made the hall of fame, why not Joe Johnson?

If KC Jones made the HOF, why not Iggy?

To piggy back from here specifically, and while noting that I'm not looking to claim there's absolute consistency across generations, I do think it becomes a lot less mysterious when you focus on the storytelling, and the most basic part of that is the throughline of being on dynasties. Yup, there's a clear tendency to include role players from the most successful teams, and it's fine to disagree with this, but it's what they're doing.

Why not X? Most of the guys you're mentioning aren't eligible for the Hall yet, so you're not actually alleging all that much inconsistency necessarily. I'd certainly expect Iggy & Jrue to make the Hall down the road. Rondo may well make it too for similar reasons.

I don't expect Allen or Smart to make the Hall, and would note they won no chips and had specific ceiling concerns. Allen's defining career moment on the national stage is arguably the Warriors deciding not to guard him, while the story of the Tatum-Brown-Smart Celtics becoming a champion has getting rid of Smart as a step along the way.

Joe Johnson it will be interesting to see if he gets in or not, and if you're just talking basketball accolades, understandable why you juxtapose him with Richmond, but I don't think "Iso Joe" is going to help Johnson the way "Run TMC" helped Richmond, and so that makes things just a bit harder for him.

EDIT, realized I didn't talk about 2 other guys who haven't been in the league that long, and so we generally wouldn't expect to know if they'll be HOF worthy.

I'll be surprised if Caruso gets into the Hall. You said bench guys got into the Hall, and while I might ask you exactly how you define a "bench guy" to come to that conclusion, I don't think there is any player who played the kind of limited minutes Caruso has played who has gotten in previously. If Caruso gets in, it will be an eyebrow-raising thing.

For White, time will tell, but I'd say he's at risk for just perpetually getting shut out of the limelight specifically behind teammate Jaylen Brown, despite the fact that I think White's generally the guy better suited to being valuable on champion-level teams. While it's possible they both could get in, the fact that the Celtic championship team will probably already have 4 HOFers on it (Tatum, Brown, Al, Jrue) will probably mean White will have to break out more than he already has to make the Hall.

(Incidentally I wouldn't call Brown a lock yet either, but I'd say that perception-wise, he's on pace to become seen as a Hall-level guy.)

Playoffs MPG:

KC Jones: 23.8
Frank Ramsey: 24.4
Caruso: 24.2
Cooper: 28.2
Ginobili: 27.9
Rodman: 28.3
Iggy: 29.8

Caruso already has 2 championships and the Thunder are the favorites to repeat, with a young team and lots of assets. And if the Thunder move on from him he could add value to any contender. He can probably end his career with 4 championships.

Okay, so you're trying to use career MPG to judge players against Caruso. I would suggest this doesn't make sense. So first, if we go by peak MPG in the playoffs we get:

Caruso 28.3
Jones 33.0
Cooper 34.0
Rodman 34.4
Ginobili 35.2
Ramsey 35.3
Iguodala 44.8

And if we just focus on championship playoff runs, their peaks:

Caruso 24.4
Cooper 29.0
Iguodala 30.2
Jones 33.0
Ginobili 33.6
Rodman 34.4
Ramsey 35.3

So we can see there's a pretty big gap between all these other guys and Caruso, and that's before we recognize the role of regular season minutes in all this. While we say players' legacies are defined in the playoffs, that's typically said with a notion that the player in question is playing major minutes all-season long as a matter of course. When a player doesn't do that, he gets relegated in the minds of the basketball world to a lower tier.

For reference, max MPG of the players in question during the regular season on championship teams:

Caruso 19.3
Iguodala 26.9
Ginobili 29.6
Jones 33.9
Rodman 35.7
Ramsey 38.0
Cooper 29.4

So yeah, Caruso is completely different from the rest, before we consider that the boy hasn't actually played all that much. Playoff minutes in career:

Caruso 1306
Ramsey 2396
Jones 2499
Cooper 4744
Rodman 4789
Iguodala 5266
Ginobili 6073

Let's remember that when Ramsey & Jones played, the playoffs were shorter, and just note that for Caruso to match the standard set by other contemporary players you trying to associate him with, he'll have to triple his total playoff minutes by the time he's done, and I'm pretty sure everyone here can recognize that this is kind of a lot to ask from a guy already in his 30s.

But as I say all of this, if the Thunder become a dynasty and Caruso becomes, say, the 4th most iconic figure in the core, it might happen for him. It's not impossible, it's just something that would require considerably more to be achieved in his career than he's done to this point.

Generally an accomplishment threshold and are you necessary to tell the story of the NBA.

Haven’t given it much thought but those seem to be important things for me.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

NZB2323 wrote:The standards are inconsistent. There are bench players from the 60s Celtics who made it. Michael Cooper, who never made an all-star team or all-NBA team, won it because he won 5 championships with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy, and he made all-defensive teams, and won DPOTY in 1987, when Hakeem was in the league.

I know blocks and steals aren’t everything, but Hakeem averaged 1.9 steals and 3.4 blocks while protecting the rim, and Cooper averaged 1.0 steals, and 0.5 blocks while denying the ball. In Hakeem’s rookie year, the Rockets went from 17th to 4th defensively. The first year Cooper received playing time for the Lakers, they went from 10th to 9th defensively. When he left the Lakers in 91, they went from 8th to 5th defensively and made the finals. When Hakeem left the Rockets in 02, they went from 17th to 29th defensively.

If Cooper makes it, why not Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, Caruso, Tony Allen, Rondo, and Marcus Smart?

If Mitch Richmond made the hall of fame, why not Joe Johnson?

If KC Jones made the HOF, why not Iggy?

KC Jones' 2 NCAA titles, along with his coaching credentials on top of his playing career was more than enough to get in.

I'm sorry but Jrue, White, Caruso, Allen, Rondo and Smart are not getting in in the HOF.

Igoudala is someone who might get in eventually because he was a 1x all-star, FMVP, 4x champion, and made a couple all-defense teams. He sacrificed some individual stats and awards to join the Warriors...he has the narrative on his side. But in my opinion, if Sheed hasn't gotten in yet, no way Iggy should.

Joe Johnson's resume isn't as good as Mitch Richmond - Joe Johnson made 1 all-NBA third team while Mitch gave 5 all-NBA teams.

The current players who are locks to make the HOF at this moment in my opinion are:

1st ballot - Lebron, Durant, Curry, Paul, Harden, Westbrook, AD, Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Lillard, George, Butler, Shai, Kawhi, Kyrie, Embiid

Not 1st ballot but will get in: Lowry, Derozan, Draymond, Love, Klay, Tatum, Gobert

TheGeneral99 wrote:I'm sorry but Jrue, White, Caruso, Allen, Rondo and Smart are not getting in in the HOF.

Igoudala is someone who might get in eventually because he was a 1x all-star, FMVP, 4x champion, and made a couple all-defense teams. He sacrificed some individual stats and awards to join the Warriors...he has the narrative on his side. But in my opinion, if Sheed hasn't gotten in yet, no way Iggy should.

Joe Johnson's resume isn't as good as Mitch Richmond - Joe Johnson made 1 all-NBA third team while Mitch gave 5 all-NBA teams.

The current players who are locks to make the HOF at this moment in my opinion are:

1st ballot - Lebron, Durant, Curry, Paul, Harden, Westbrook, AD, Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Lillard, George, Butler, Shai, Kawhi, Kyrie, Embiid

Not 1st ballot but will get in: Lowry, Derozan, Draymond, Love, Klay, Tatum, Gobert

Wait, you’re the OP aren’t you? Wow, what a change in tone from asking for others’ opinions to telling them they’re wrong and you know because you say so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If an NBA player has 6 All-Star selections, the argument is why they SHOULDN'T be in the Naismith HOF.

Doctor MJ wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:I'm sorry but Jrue, White, Caruso, Allen, Rondo and Smart are not getting in in the HOF.

Igoudala is someone who might get in eventually because he was a 1x all-star, FMVP, 4x champion, and made a couple all-defense teams. He sacrificed some individual stats and awards to join the Warriors...he has the narrative on his side. But in my opinion, if Sheed hasn't gotten in yet, no way Iggy should.

Joe Johnson's resume isn't as good as Mitch Richmond - Joe Johnson made 1 all-NBA third team while Mitch gave 5 all-NBA teams.

The current players who are locks to make the HOF at this moment in my opinion are:

1st ballot - Lebron, Durant, Curry, Paul, Harden, Westbrook, AD, Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Lillard, George, Butler, Shai, Kawhi, Kyrie, Embiid

Not 1st ballot but will get in: Lowry, Derozan, Draymond, Love, Klay, Tatum, Gobert

Wait, you’re the OP aren’t you? Wow, what a change in tone from asking for others’ opinions to telling them they’re wrong and you know because you say so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I can't give my own opinions either?

If you disagree then I'm happy to see your reply.

Not sure what the point of your response was?

TheGeneral99 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:I'm sorry but Jrue, White, Caruso, Allen, Rondo and Smart are not getting in in the HOF.

Igoudala is someone who might get in eventually because he was a 1x all-star, FMVP, 4x champion, and made a couple all-defense teams. He sacrificed some individual stats and awards to join the Warriors...he has the narrative on his side. But in my opinion, if Sheed hasn't gotten in yet, no way Iggy should.

Joe Johnson's resume isn't as good as Mitch Richmond - Joe Johnson made 1 all-NBA third team while Mitch gave 5 all-NBA teams.

The current players who are locks to make the HOF at this moment in my opinion are:

1st ballot - Lebron, Durant, Curry, Paul, Harden, Westbrook, AD, Luka, Giannis, Jokic, Lillard, George, Butler, Shai, Kawhi, Kyrie, Embiid

Not 1st ballot but will get in: Lowry, Derozan, Draymond, Love, Klay, Tatum, Gobert

Wait, you’re the OP aren’t you? Wow, what a change in tone from asking for others’ opinions to telling them they’re wrong and you know because you say so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I can't give my own opinions either?

If you disagree then I'm happy to see your reply.

Not sure what the point of your response was?

Go back and read what I’ve already written in response to your prompt and you should be able to figure out everything you need to know about my stance on the topic.

If you want to continue talking with someone who took the time to respond to your prompt, the ball is in your court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doctor MJ wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:Wait, you’re the OP aren’t you? Wow, what a change in tone from asking for others’ opinions to telling them they’re wrong and you know because you say so.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So I can't give my own opinions either?

If you disagree then I'm happy to see your reply.

Not sure what the point of your response was?

Go back and read what I’ve already written in response to your prompt and you should be able to figure out everything you need to know about my stance on the topic.

If you want to continue talking with someone who took the time to respond to your prompt, the ball is in your court.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude, I provided my opinion on these players and you decided to insult for me for no reason.

sikma42 wrote:Generally an accomplishment threshold and are you necessary to tell the story of the NBA.

Haven’t given it much thought but those seem to be important things for me.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

the story of basketball, not just the NBA

"Fame" isn't solely about who has the most elite talent. That's why I prefer an All-Star bar over an All-NBA one.