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I'm of the opinion Jokic is one of the 3 best offensive players ever or so, and despite Shaq's dominance on that end, I give Jokic the clear nod. Depending on his mood, Jokic can be Shaq, he can be Dirk, he can be Magic -- he can dominate you offensively in any way he wants to. And he hits his free throws. He's an offensive demi-god.

However, the defense is where it gets tricky. I think Jokic was an above average defensive player in '23, the championship year, which is why it's his clear peak IMO. Not great, but adequate. But I'm thoroughly unimpressed with his defense in every other year of his prime.

Meanwhile, after watching a ton of old Laker games, Shaq's defense in the 3-peat was pretty damn good. Not on the perimeter, but his rim protection was very, very good. Leagues better than Jokic's. Both as a shot blocker and a rim deterrent. And Jokic isn't exactly a perimeter stalwart himself.

I know the board is somewhat split on who the better player is. Does Shaq's defense in the interior sufficiently make up the offensive gap, if you believe there is one?

*Sidenote. Robert Horry was definitely the best defender on the 3-peat Lakers. Dude was a monster on that end and would be an extremely valuable player today. He could have started on any title team in the last 10 years.

I would have to go back to the film. But I recall shaq in 2000's defense being really good. I don't recall it being anywhere close in 2001 or 2002. But xRAPM seems to think he dropped off in 2001 but recovered in 2002.

So I'd be interested in some takes there.

At the end of the day the issue is Shaq as dominate as he was...if you had the bodies to throw at him. You could limit his offensive dominance and without a Kobe/Penny/Wade...I'm not sure he wins with a Murray. So I'll take Jokic, but I'd be open to a strong case for him.

Let’s see how he plays without MPJ before we start crowning him.

Shaq has really weak portability defensively - his PNR coverage was a liability against Mike Bibby in 2002, I can't even fathom how big of a problem it would've been nowadays.

But he played in an era of low pace / very mid offensive level / mid talent on perimeter - and there, he was indeed net positive in 2002 in above average defensive team, and he was very net positive on the best playoff team defensively in 2001, and net positive on the best defense in the league in 2000.

Jokic would've been a better defender than right now in that era as well, but still not as good as Shaq, I guess.

I guess the main difference is that Jokic is much more consistent regular season performer. Better defense vs worse offense is just a matter of choice.

You forget that Jokic laps Shaq in the steals department. Very hard for Centers to rack up a stat like that since C's rarely get the ball.

I don't think the defensive gap is such a clear slam dunk in Shaq's favor when the playmaking gap is just as huge if not bigger.

Come on op we need a poll for this sort of thing

ImmortalD24 wrote:Let’s see how he plays without MPJ before we start crowning him.

First time I've heard of MPJ as a control for Jokic. Not sure how that works.

The Master wrote:Shaq has really weak portability defensively - his PNR coverage was a liability against Mike Bibby in 2002, I can't even fathom how big of a problem it would've been nowadays.

But he played in an era of low pace / very mid offensive level / mid talent on perimeter - and there, he was indeed net positive in 2002 in above average defensive team, and he was very net positive on the best playoff team defensively in 2001, and net positive on the best defense in the league in 2000.

Jokic would've been a better defender than right now in that era as well, but still not as good as Shaq, I guess.

I guess the main difference is that Jokic is much more consistent regular season performer. Better defense vs worse offense is just a matter of choice.

Sure but Bibby would have torched Jokic too. Agree with the rest.

What are you even saying here op?

How about Shaq's offense vs Jokic's defense which do you prefer?

Statlanta wrote:You forget that Jokic laps Shaq in the steals department. Very hard for Centers to rack up a stat like that since C's rarely get the ball.

I don't think the defensive gap is such a clear slam dunk in Shaq's favor when the playmaking gap is just as huge if not bigger.

I don't think either is a slam dunk. That's why I made the thread.

Also I don't need my center to get steals nearly as much as I need him protecting the paint. A 1% steal advantage for Jokic to be exact, which is good and everything, but not something you can rely on for a possession-to-possession basis like a guy who can and will threaten to block your shot if you drive.

Black Jack wrote:What are you even saying here op?

How about Shaq's offense vs Jokic's defense which do you prefer?

I'm saying does Shaq's defensive advantage make up Jokic's offensive advantage, if you think it exists.

Neither of them are good defenders, but Jokic is more of a defensive black hole.

Shaq didn’t play any defense at all more than about 8 feet from the basket.

I don't think it does personally. Offensive schemes have become more complex and perimeter players are more skilled today. Shaq would have a lot more difficulty trying to play defense today than in the early 2000s.

JRoy wrote:Shaq didn’t play any defense at all more than about 8 feet from the basket.

This is exactly right. Go back and watch film. He doesn’t leave the paint ever on defense. He doesn’t raise his arms outside of the restricted area. He was atrocious in pick and roll. In other words, he’s extremely fortunate he played in the era he did.

picc wrote:
*Sidenote. Robert Horry was definitely the best defender on the 3-peat Lakers. Dude was a monster on that end and would be an extremely valuable player today. He could have started on any title team in the last 10 years.

Please ... I know that on this board seems like The Mamba never existed, but please...

picc wrote:

Black Jack wrote:What are you even saying here op?

How about Shaq's offense vs Jokic's defense which do you prefer?

I'm saying does Shaq's defensive advantage make up Jokic's offensive advantage, if you think it exists.

What defensive advantage did Shaq have? Shaq liked to sit in the lane, Jokic plays point guard. Shaq and Jokic would both score 40+ against the other.

How about say, Alex Caruso or similar defenders vs Jokic? Prime Draymond, Rodman, etc.? that would be a better comparison.

Shaq as a pure drop coverage rim protector is simply a much larger, more vertically explosive obstacle in the paint. Prime Shaq's defense was all about him being a giant obstacle. He was so big and he automatically won any strength-based physical battle in the paint.

I know Jokic looks goofy, but he's so much more mobile than people casually talk about him. He's pretty adept at rotating out the perimeter and contesting shots. He's so good at scram switching, the Nuggets built a whole defensive system around it. He makes very high-level reads. Obviously he's toast against elite speed, but against anyone else, he's pretty fine on the perimeter (the numbers back this up). Elite defensive hands.

Where Jokic sucks is vertical defense beyond his height. There's no hops in any situation, so once the game goes vertical, he simply has an exact limit of his height+his wingspan. Shaq and most other centers were able to make vertical plays. It's a big weakness that's sort of rare for a center.

They both have strengths and weaknesses on defense.

I think Jokic has a bigger offensive advantage, with passing, 3-point shooting, and free throw shooting.

picc wrote:

ImmortalD24 wrote:Let’s see how he plays without MPJ before we start crowning him.

First time I've heard of MPJ as a control for Jokic. Not sure how that works.

I'm sure he was kidding