All Time Franchise Players

[pipfan]

Most franchises have a clear top player of all time (Chi, Clev, Den, SA, GS, NY, Milw, Orl, Indy, Tor, ATL, Miami, Hou, Dallas, Minny)

Some franchises just don't have enough history to really have one all time great (Sac-not counting the Big O, Char, NO, Brk/NJ, and some others).

Others have many options-but of these 5 franchises, who is their top all time guy?

[Luke]

Do you consider Wade or Lebron as all time best Heat ?

[mojomarc]

For Portland, it's a three way fight generally between Drexler and Walton, and to a lesser extent Dame (simply because he never made a Finals with Portland most have him just a hair behind)

[jezzerinho]

Orlando has 4 candidates
Shaq
Penny
TMac
Howard

Personally, I vote Penny. I appreciate I might be in the minority, but Shaq is a Laker in his own heart and Dwight created.the Dwightmare and years of mediocrity. Tmac was flashy but realistically not much more.

Penny was a class act and an uber talent.

[DonaldSanders]

Do you consider Wade or Lebron as all time best Heat ?

Best doesn't have to be the 'all time franchise' guy. LeBron was only there 4 seasons, Wade was there over a decade and brought an additional chip without LeBron. It's pretty clearly Wade.

[Luke]

Do you consider Wade or Lebron as all time best Heat ?

Best doesn't have to be the 'all time franchise' guy. LeBron was only there 4 seasons, Wade was there over a decade and brought an additional chip without LeBron. It's pretty clearly Wade.

I agree 100 % with you, but I bet there are people who will say that Lebron has more MVP and FMVP than Wade as a Heat

[NZB2323]

Do you consider Wade or Lebron as all time best Heat ?

Best doesn't have to be the 'all time franchise' guy. LeBron was only there 4 seasons, Wade was there over a decade and brought an additional chip without LeBron. It's pretty clearly Wade.

I agree 100 % with you, but I bet there are people who will say that Lebron has more MVP and FMVP than Wade as a Heat

Wade is the Heat all time leader in games, minutes played, field goals, free throws, assists, steals, points, Win Shares, and VORP. He has almost twice the VORP and Win Shares of LeBron as a Heat.

Would those people have Kawhi as the GOAT Raptor and Derrick Rose ahead of Scottie Pippen for the Bulls?

[MMyhre]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

[KGtabake]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

[ellobo]

Most franchises have a clear top player of all time (Chi, Clev, Den, SA, GS, NY, Milw, Orl, Indy, Tor, ATL, Miami, Hou, Dallas, Minny)

Some franchises just don't have enough history to really have one all time great (Sac-not counting the Big O, Char, NO, Brk/NJ, and some others).

Others have many options-but of these 5 franchises, who is their top all time guy?

I'm a Knicks fan and I don't think the Knicks have a clear top player of all-time. By stats, I guess Ewing. But by winning (and with good stats and accolades), Frazier or Reed.

If I had to choose one, it would be Frazier. Is that who you had in mind?

[KGtabake]

Most franchises have a clear top player of all time (Chi, Clev, Den, SA, GS, NY, Milw, Orl, Indy, Tor, ATL, Miami, Hou, Dallas, Minny)

Some franchises just don't have enough history to really have one all time great (Sac-not counting the Big O, Char, NO, Brk/NJ, and some others).

Others have many options-but of these 5 franchises, who is their top all time guy?

I'm a Knicks fan and I don't think the Knicks have a clear top player of all-time. By stats, I guess Ewing. But by winning (and with good stats and accolades), Frazier or Reed.

If I had to choose one, it would be Frazier. Is that who you had in mind?

It's Ewing for the Knicks. As a non Knicks fan, the first player that comes in mind it's him.

[MMyhre]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

No, it's really not. I didn't think I would have to list every accolade, but since you want to nitpick (All NBA 1st has much more value for example yet you don't mention which All NBA teams he got to make it look better):

First of all, TWO TIME MVP. That should just end it right there, but of course I am not one to not look deeper, even if I think it's a bit silly there are always deeper truths to be found.
2 MVPs
11 x All-NBA First Team
2 x Second Team
1x Third Team
3x NBA All-Defensive First Team
1x Second Team
14x All Star
NBA All-Rookie First Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
2 Olympic Golds
1 World Cup Gold
#3 All Time in Points Regular season
#8 All Time in Rebounds
#8 All Time in Points Playoffs
#7 All Time in Rebounds Playoffs

Stockton falls to 3 and 5 all time in the playoffs in assists and steals, pretty far behind LeBron and even behind Magic, because he was not an as impactful player in the playoffs as in the regular season.

Stockton has 2 less MVP's, 1 less All Star game MVP, 4 less All Stars, 9 less first teams and 3 less overall All NBA selections, no first team All Defensive selections (but 1 more overall selection), 9x assists leader and 2x steals leader, 1 less world cup gold.

Now, achivements does not prove everything (two MVP's proves a lot of increased value though), so lets dissect the details.

Stockton got a lot of inflated assists from throwing entry passes, or basic passes to players off screens. I could make most of those passes. He was a good to great passer in transition, but not an outstanding or creative passer in the hardcourt like a Magic, Nash or CP3, he has lower value assists than these players, thus making his volume stats less impactful.

Magic Johnson also interestingly leads him in assists per game average in the playoffs by 12.3 to 10.1, and he only ranks 18th in the playoffs in steals per game All Time, showing that he did not sustain his impressive steal rate when things got tougher in the playoffs = your raw stats are less impressive in this discussion.

Stocktons best numbers on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
87-88, 11 games, 43.5 min, 19.5 pts on 61.8 ts%, 0.4-1.3 3pt/6.8/8.3 ft, 4.1 reb,14.8 ast/4.4 to, 3.4 stl, 0.4 blk. ws/48 20.1 %, bpm 8.8, vorp 1.3, per 22.5.
Per 100 Poss: 22.7 pts, 17.2 ast/5.1 to, 3.9 stl, 4.8 reb.

This shows that he was very impressive peak wise early on, but did not combine his best years in terms of production and athleticism, with his 3pt capacity, further diminishing his impact as a 2nd option as he was way less of a threat offensively in the 90's runs - less value as a 2nd option, and I do believe Hornacek was the 2nd option for many of these runs without looking into it yet, as Stocktons points and overall production is not close to this level in the longer runs afterwards.

Malone best playoffs on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
91-92, 16 games, 43 min, 29.1 pts on 61.8 ts %,10.6-13.1 ft, 11.3 reb (2.7 oreb), 2.6 ast/2.9 to, 1.4 stl, 1.2 blk. ws/48 22 %, 6,5 bpm, 1.5 vorp, 25 per.
Per 100 Poss: 36.1 pts, 14 reb, 3.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.5 blk.

So in terms of their peak production in the playoffs, it's actually close. Malone is the leading scorer and 1st option though, and that's always the most valuable thing to have in the playoffs. They also lost to the Blazers in 2 close last games in the 92 playoffs due to Stockton having two terrible games, while Malone kept producing. Their best shot at making the finals before the later runs.

The thing with Stockton is that this younger peak in 1988 +/- was not the same Stockton that played in the later runs, while Malone kept his production steady for most of the 90's and even won MVP's late in them, if not 100 % deservedly so that's at another level than Stockton in terms of impact.

Stockton averaged 36.7 min, 14.1 pts on 56.6 ts % with only 0.8 threes made per game and 4 free throws attempted, 10.7 ast/3 to, 3.4 rebs, 1.7 stls from 1990 to 1998 in the playoffs.
That's not someone you can compare to an consistent All NBA player +/- in Karl Malone who had from 90-98 in the playoffs:
41.6 min, 27.1 pts on 53.2 ts %, 11.4 reb(2.8 oreb), 3.2 ast/2.7 to, 1.4 stl, 0.9 blk. Also in the 2 last finals runs we have +/- available where he is at +150 compared to Stocktons +49.

So it's not like I am saying Karl Malone was perfect, his ts % dropped significantly in the postseason, but John Stockton was not much better at just 3.4 ts % more on 13 points less as the 2nd or 3rd option in the offense.
Karl Malone was a better and more impactful basketball player for the totality of their careers, but the peak discussion is very close imo, but Stockton was not close to that 20 pts 14 ast 3-4 steals high ts % player in the 90's where they had their deepest playoff runs, and was not even close to getting two MVP's in his career.

I could go more into depth with this, but I think the point is proven imo. I don't think Stocktons production in the postseason in the 90's matches his overall resume and hype from basic volume watchers. 14 pts and 10.7 assists on ok to good efficiency with 1.7 steals, this production was matched by Rondo from 2007 to 2012 with 38.5 min 14.5 pts, 9.2 ast/2.8 to, 6 reb, 2 stl on 48.7 ts % +262 +/- who made one All NBA third team, 4 All Stars and 2x first defensive teams and 2x second defensive teams during this period. So you could say Rondos superior defense and rebounding compensates for his lesser ts % and slightly worse playmaking by the outside stats.

Was Rajon Rondo, a weak All NBA player during that whole playoff period or worse at the start of that run, comparable to All NBA first team players in MVP contention like Dirk or Dwight Howard? Because that's who Malone is compared to All Time and in terms of what he has produced, even if he is overrated and not as good as Dirk, he was still a bonafide First Team All NBA player that at least kept his production going as a 1st option in the playoffs, and he made All Defensive First Teams in his MVP season. I don't know whether that was deserved, but you should see that the level of difference in impact at this point is pretty far beyond Stockton who produces like a weak All Star in the postseason +/- for their longest runs in the 90's without going further in depth here. Even in those peak Stockton years, he was not a playmaker like Magic or Steve Nash, and certainly not at that level in the 90's, where his ability to penetrate into the lane like in 1987-88 was not at the same level due to much slower speed = less overall impact to create better shots for his teammates by creating pressure on his own.

[The4thHorseman]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

Just speculation, there's no way of proving that.

[MMyhre]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

Just speculation, there's no way of proving that.

Watch on YouTube

If Stockton was at this level of playmaking and passing creativity, I think you could make an argument like Nash boosted Stoudemires ts % and scoring numbers in Phoenix to level he never would come close to as a 1st option scoring option by himself.

Instead a lot of his high assist numbers are like this

Watch on YouTube

7 of his 20 assists here was basic entry passes or normal passes to Malone in the post, or Malone going for a finish. He had some nice dimes as well, but 35 % of his assists here was basic stuff any point guard could do.

[KGtabake]

The fact that Stockton is so close to Malone is crazy. Yeah he is an ****, but in terms of their impact it's not really close, Malone is a 2 time MVP, 11 time All NBA 1st team and has 3 first team All Defensive awards + 14 time all star ++++.. it's not close.

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

No, it's really not. I didn't think I would have to list every accolade, but since you want to nitpick (All NBA 1st has much more value for example yet you don't mention which All NBA teams he got to make it look better):

First of all, TWO TIME MVP. That should just end it right there, but of course I am not one to not look deeper, even if I think it's a bit silly there are always deeper truths to be found.
2 MVPs
11 x All-NBA First Team
2 x Second Team
1x Third Team
3x NBA All-Defensive First Team
1x Second Team
14x All Star
NBA All-Rookie First Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
2 Olympic Golds
1 World Cup Gold
#3 All Time in Points Regular season
#8 All Time in Rebounds
#8 All Time in Points Playoffs
#7 All Time in Rebounds Playoffs

Stockton falls to 3 and 5 all time in the playoffs in assists and steals, pretty far behind LeBron and even behind Magic, because he was not an as impactful player in the playoffs as in the regular season.

Stockton has 2 less MVP's, 1 less All Star game MVP, 4 less All Stars, 9 less first teams and 3 less overall All NBA selections, no first team All Defensive selections (but 1 more overall selection), 9x assists leader and 2x steals leader, 1 less world cup gold.

Now, achivements does not prove everything (two MVP's proves a lot of increased value though), so lets dissect the details.

Stockton got a lot of inflated assists from throwing entry passes, or basic passes to players off screens. I could make most of those passes. He was a good to great passer in transition, but not an outstanding or creative passer in the hardcourt like a Magic, Nash or CP3, he has lower value assists than these players, thus making his volume stats less impactful.

Magic Johnson also interestingly leads him in assists per game average in the playoffs by 12.3 to 10.1, and he only ranks 18th in the playoffs in steals per game All Time, showing that he did not sustain his impressive steal rate when things got tougher in the playoffs = your raw stats are less impressive in this discussion.

Stocktons best numbers on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
87-88, 11 games, 43.5 min, 19.5 pts on 61.8 ts%, 0.4-1.3 3pt/6.8/8.3 ft, 4.1 reb,14.8 ast/4.4 to, 3.4 stl, 0.4 blk. ws/48 20.1 %, bpm 8.8, vorp 1.3, per 22.5.
Per 100 Poss: 22.7 pts, 17.2 ast/5.1 to, 3.9 stl, 4.8 reb.

This shows that he was very impressive peak wise early on, but did not combine his best years in terms of production and athleticism, with his 3pt capacity, further diminishing his impact as a 2nd option as he was way less of a threat offensively in the 90's runs - less value as a 2nd option, and I do believe Hornacek was the 2nd option for many of these runs without looking into it yet, as Stocktons points and overall production is not close to this level in the longer runs afterwards.

Malone best playoffs on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
91-92, 16 games, 43 min, 29.1 pts on 61.8 ts %,10.6-13.1 ft, 11.3 reb (2.7 oreb), 2.6 ast/2.9 to, 1.4 stl, 1.2 blk. ws/48 22 %, 6,5 bpm, 1.5 vorp, 25 per.
Per 100 Poss: 36.1 pts, 14 reb, 3.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.5 blk.

So in terms of their peak production in the playoffs, it's actually close. Malone is the leading scorer and 1st option though, and that's always the most valuable thing to have in the playoffs. They also lost to the Blazers in 2 close last games in the 92 playoffs due to Stockton having two terrible games, while Malone kept producing. Their best shot at making the finals before the later runs.

The thing with Stockton is that this younger peak in 1988 +/- was not the same Stockton that played in the later runs, while Malone kept his production steady for most of the 90's and even won MVP's late in them, if not 100 % deservedly so that's at another level than Stockton in terms of impact.

Stockton averaged 36.7 min, 14.1 pts on 56.6 ts % with only 0.8 threes made per game and 4 free throws attempted, 10.7 ast/3 to, 3.4 rebs, 1.7 stls from 1990 to 1998 in the playoffs.
That's not someone you can compare to an consistent All NBA player +/- in Karl Malone who had from 90-98 in the playoffs:
41.6 min, 27.1 pts on 53.2 ts %, 11.4 reb(2.8 oreb), 3.2 ast/2.7 to, 1.4 stl, 0.9 blk. Also in the 2 last finals runs we have +/- available where he is at +150 compared to Stocktons +49.

So it's not like I am saying Karl Malone was perfect, his ts % dropped significantly in the postseason, but John Stockton was not much better at just 3.4 ts % more on 13 points less as the 2nd or 3rd option in the offense.
Karl Malone was a better and more impactful basketball player for the totality of their careers, but the peak discussion is very close imo, but Stockton was not close to that 20 pts 14 ast 3-4 steals high ts % player in the 90's where they had their deepest playoff runs, and was not even close to getting two MVP's in his career.

I could go more into depth with this, but I think the point is proven imo. I don't think Stocktons production in the postseason in the 90's matches his overall resume and hype from basic volume watchers. 14 pts and 10.7 assists on ok to good efficiency with 1.7 steals, this production was matched by Rondo from 2007 to 2012 with 38.5 min 14.5 pts, 9.2 ast/2.8 to, 6 reb, 2 stl on 48.7 ts % +262 +/- who made one All NBA third team, 4 All Stars and 2x first defensive teams and 2x second defensive teams during this period. So you could say Rondos superior defense and rebounding compensates for his lesser ts % and slightly worse playmaking by the outside stats.

Was Rajon Rondo, a weak All NBA player during that whole playoff period or worse at the start of that run, comparable to All NBA first team players in MVP contention like Dirk or Dwight Howard? Because that's who Malone is compared to All Time and in terms of what he has produced, even if he is overrated and not as good as Dirk, he was still a bonafide First Team All NBA player that at least kept his production going as a 1st option in the playoffs, and he made All Defensive First Teams in his MVP season. I don't know whether that was deserved, but you should see that the level of difference in impact at this point is pretty far beyond Stockton who produces like a weak All Star in the postseason +/- for their longest runs in the 90's without going further in depth here. Even in those peak Stockton years, he was not a playmaker like Magic or Steve Nash, and certainly not at that level in the 90's, where his ability to penetrate into the lane like in 1987-88 was not at the same level due to much slower speed = less overall impact to create better shots for his teammates by creating pressure on his own.

First of all you're the one that started nitpicking accolades on this thread.
Secondly, your definition of Stockton's assists is exactly this. Your own definition.
It doesn't count for anything.
Stockton is the all time leader in assists and he's not going to lose this record anytime soon.
Just like his steals record.
Malone isn't leading any meaningful stat category in history.
That doesn't mean much unless someone (yourself on this convo) is trying to downgrade another player by not recognising his accomplishments.

[Kittles02]

Most franchises have a clear top player of all time (Chi, Clev, Den, SA, GS, NY, Milw, Orl, Indy, Tor, ATL, Miami, Hou, Dallas, Minny)

Some franchises just don't have enough history to really have one all time great (Sac-not counting the Big O, Char, NO, Brk/NJ, and some others).

Others have many options-but of these 5 franchises, who is their top all time guy?

For NJ/BKN it's Kidd

[MMyhre]

Stockton is the NBAs all time leader in steals and assists.
11x All NBA, 5x All Defense, 10x All Star.
Malone's impact isn't the same without Stockton (and the other way around).
It's pretty close.

No, it's really not. I didn't think I would have to list every accolade, but since you want to nitpick (All NBA 1st has much more value for example yet you don't mention which All NBA teams he got to make it look better):

First of all, TWO TIME MVP. That should just end it right there, but of course I am not one to not look deeper, even if I think it's a bit silly there are always deeper truths to be found.
2 MVPs
11 x All-NBA First Team
2 x Second Team
1x Third Team
3x NBA All-Defensive First Team
1x Second Team
14x All Star
NBA All-Rookie First Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
2 Olympic Golds
1 World Cup Gold
#3 All Time in Points Regular season
#8 All Time in Rebounds
#8 All Time in Points Playoffs
#7 All Time in Rebounds Playoffs

Stockton falls to 3 and 5 all time in the playoffs in assists and steals, pretty far behind LeBron and even behind Magic, because he was not an as impactful player in the playoffs as in the regular season.

Stockton has 2 less MVP's, 1 less All Star game MVP, 4 less All Stars, 9 less first teams and 3 less overall All NBA selections, no first team All Defensive selections (but 1 more overall selection), 9x assists leader and 2x steals leader, 1 less world cup gold.

Now, achivements does not prove everything (two MVP's proves a lot of increased value though), so lets dissect the details.

Stockton got a lot of inflated assists from throwing entry passes, or basic passes to players off screens. I could make most of those passes. He was a good to great passer in transition, but not an outstanding or creative passer in the hardcourt like a Magic, Nash or CP3, he has lower value assists than these players, thus making his volume stats less impactful.

Magic Johnson also interestingly leads him in assists per game average in the playoffs by 12.3 to 10.1, and he only ranks 18th in the playoffs in steals per game All Time, showing that he did not sustain his impressive steal rate when things got tougher in the playoffs = your raw stats are less impressive in this discussion.

Stocktons best numbers on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
87-88, 11 games, 43.5 min, 19.5 pts on 61.8 ts%, 0.4-1.3 3pt/6.8/8.3 ft, 4.1 reb,14.8 ast/4.4 to, 3.4 stl, 0.4 blk. ws/48 20.1 %, bpm 8.8, vorp 1.3, per 22.5.
Per 100 Poss: 22.7 pts, 17.2 ast/5.1 to, 3.9 stl, 4.8 reb.

This shows that he was very impressive peak wise early on, but did not combine his best years in terms of production and athleticism, with his 3pt capacity, further diminishing his impact as a 2nd option as he was way less of a threat offensively in the 90's runs - less value as a 2nd option, and I do believe Hornacek was the 2nd option for many of these runs without looking into it yet, as Stocktons points and overall production is not close to this level in the longer runs afterwards.

Malone best playoffs on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
91-92, 16 games, 43 min, 29.1 pts on 61.8 ts %,10.6-13.1 ft, 11.3 reb (2.7 oreb), 2.6 ast/2.9 to, 1.4 stl, 1.2 blk. ws/48 22 %, 6,5 bpm, 1.5 vorp, 25 per.
Per 100 Poss: 36.1 pts, 14 reb, 3.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.5 blk.

So in terms of their peak production in the playoffs, it's actually close. Malone is the leading scorer and 1st option though, and that's always the most valuable thing to have in the playoffs. They also lost to the Blazers in 2 close last games in the 92 playoffs due to Stockton having two terrible games, while Malone kept producing. Their best shot at making the finals before the later runs.

The thing with Stockton is that this younger peak in 1988 +/- was not the same Stockton that played in the later runs, while Malone kept his production steady for most of the 90's and even won MVP's late in them, if not 100 % deservedly so that's at another level than Stockton in terms of impact.

Stockton averaged 36.7 min, 14.1 pts on 56.6 ts % with only 0.8 threes made per game and 4 free throws attempted, 10.7 ast/3 to, 3.4 rebs, 1.7 stls from 1990 to 1998 in the playoffs.
That's not someone you can compare to an consistent All NBA player +/- in Karl Malone who had from 90-98 in the playoffs:
41.6 min, 27.1 pts on 53.2 ts %, 11.4 reb(2.8 oreb), 3.2 ast/2.7 to, 1.4 stl, 0.9 blk. Also in the 2 last finals runs we have +/- available where he is at +150 compared to Stocktons +49.

So it's not like I am saying Karl Malone was perfect, his ts % dropped significantly in the postseason, but John Stockton was not much better at just 3.4 ts % more on 13 points less as the 2nd or 3rd option in the offense.
Karl Malone was a better and more impactful basketball player for the totality of their careers, but the peak discussion is very close imo, but Stockton was not close to that 20 pts 14 ast 3-4 steals high ts % player in the 90's where they had their deepest playoff runs, and was not even close to getting two MVP's in his career.

I could go more into depth with this, but I think the point is proven imo. I don't think Stocktons production in the postseason in the 90's matches his overall resume and hype from basic volume watchers. 14 pts and 10.7 assists on ok to good efficiency with 1.7 steals, this production was matched by Rondo from 2007 to 2012 with 38.5 min 14.5 pts, 9.2 ast/2.8 to, 6 reb, 2 stl on 48.7 ts % +262 +/- who made one All NBA third team, 4 All Stars and 2x first defensive teams and 2x second defensive teams during this period. So you could say Rondos superior defense and rebounding compensates for his lesser ts % and slightly worse playmaking by the outside stats.

Was Rajon Rondo, a weak All NBA player during that whole playoff period or worse at the start of that run, comparable to All NBA first team players in MVP contention like Dirk or Dwight Howard? Because that's who Malone is compared to All Time and in terms of what he has produced, even if he is overrated and not as good as Dirk, he was still a bonafide First Team All NBA player that at least kept his production going as a 1st option in the playoffs, and he made All Defensive First Teams in his MVP season. I don't know whether that was deserved, but you should see that the level of difference in impact at this point is pretty far beyond Stockton who produces like a weak All Star in the postseason +/- for their longest runs in the 90's without going further in depth here. Even in those peak Stockton years, he was not a playmaker like Magic or Steve Nash, and certainly not at that level in the 90's, where his ability to penetrate into the lane like in 1987-88 was not at the same level due to much slower speed = less overall impact to create better shots for his teammates by creating pressure on his own.

First of all you're the one that started nitpicking accolades on this thread.
Secondly, your definition of Stockton's assists is exactly this. Your own definition.
It doesn't count for anything.
Stockton is the all time leader in assists and he's not going to lose this record anytime soon.
Just like his steals record.
Malone isn't leading any meaningful stat category in history.
That doesn't mean much unless someone (yourself on this convo) is trying to downgrade another player by not recognising his accomplishments.

Yes, because you were unprecise in your comparison of accolades to make your post look better. So I wasn't going to let you lazily make your own argument look better because you are biased toward looking more "right" instead of presenting precise facts about Stocktons accolades.
All time leading categories and production in the regular season does not mean you are as good as MVP level players, or else James Harden has a top 10 all time case or better.
Stockton fell off in the playoffs, where it matters, nor would being a stat leader all time automatically mean you are as good as Malone.
Carmelo Anthony could have scored 25 pts and grabbed 10 rebounds for 25 years and be the NBA all time leading scorer and rebounder, while still being a poor contributor to winning basketball because he played **** defense and selfish, inefficient offense with bad playmaking etc.
So no, just listing that is not enough to prove anything.
I defined those assists and I shared an example of him throwing basic passes that inflate his assists numbers, where Malone does the heavy lifting in terms of making a move in the post and scoring. You posted nothing to prove your point except repeating words and denial of everything that was thrown at you, refusing to even comment on anything I wrote to make my case.
Stockton isn't leading any meaningful stat category in history in the playoffs either. And a difference of a couple of positions is not that impactful, especially when you consider that points is a more valuable stat than assists, because points ultimately win you the game, and you don't need an assist to score a point.
Also, the difference in accolades alone and lack of production in the playoffs, the fact Stockton was not even the 2nd option for part of the 90's, does not make your argument as good as my detailed points.
Where am I not recognizing Stocktons accomplishments or downgrading him? I am objectively looking deeper into it, and proving/making a very strong case for that one player was just better and more impactful over a long period than the other. While you put up amazing insight like "Stockton is the leader of stats thus he is as great as Malone".
What is next? Michael Jordan put ball in basket more than others so he good. I think you are the one downgrading the entire game of basketball by refusing to even acknowledge the insane amount of depth this game has when you dive into it, and trying to "win" an argument by listing the **** all time assists and steals list as the answer to basketball impact.

I do get the vibe that I am talking to someone who decides that they are right and sticks with it, regardless of anything else, so no point in arguing further.

[KGtabake]

No, it's really not. I didn't think I would have to list every accolade, but since you want to nitpick (All NBA 1st has much more value for example yet you don't mention which All NBA teams he got to make it look better):

First of all, TWO TIME MVP. That should just end it right there, but of course I am not one to not look deeper, even if I think it's a bit silly there are always deeper truths to be found.
2 MVPs
11 x All-NBA First Team
2 x Second Team
1x Third Team
3x NBA All-Defensive First Team
1x Second Team
14x All Star
NBA All-Rookie First Team
2x NBA All-Star Game MVP
2 Olympic Golds
1 World Cup Gold
#3 All Time in Points Regular season
#8 All Time in Rebounds
#8 All Time in Points Playoffs
#7 All Time in Rebounds Playoffs

Stockton falls to 3 and 5 all time in the playoffs in assists and steals, pretty far behind LeBron and even behind Magic, because he was not an as impactful player in the playoffs as in the regular season.

Stockton has 2 less MVP's, 1 less All Star game MVP, 4 less All Stars, 9 less first teams and 3 less overall All NBA selections, no first team All Defensive selections (but 1 more overall selection), 9x assists leader and 2x steals leader, 1 less world cup gold.

Now, achivements does not prove everything (two MVP's proves a lot of increased value though), so lets dissect the details.

Stockton got a lot of inflated assists from throwing entry passes, or basic passes to players off screens. I could make most of those passes. He was a good to great passer in transition, but not an outstanding or creative passer in the hardcourt like a Magic, Nash or CP3, he has lower value assists than these players, thus making his volume stats less impactful.

Magic Johnson also interestingly leads him in assists per game average in the playoffs by 12.3 to 10.1, and he only ranks 18th in the playoffs in steals per game All Time, showing that he did not sustain his impressive steal rate when things got tougher in the playoffs = your raw stats are less impressive in this discussion.

Stocktons best numbers on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
87-88, 11 games, 43.5 min, 19.5 pts on 61.8 ts%, 0.4-1.3 3pt/6.8/8.3 ft, 4.1 reb,14.8 ast/4.4 to, 3.4 stl, 0.4 blk. ws/48 20.1 %, bpm 8.8, vorp 1.3, per 22.5.
Per 100 Poss: 22.7 pts, 17.2 ast/5.1 to, 3.9 stl, 4.8 reb.

This shows that he was very impressive peak wise early on, but did not combine his best years in terms of production and athleticism, with his 3pt capacity, further diminishing his impact as a 2nd option as he was way less of a threat offensively in the 90's runs - less value as a 2nd option, and I do believe Hornacek was the 2nd option for many of these runs without looking into it yet, as Stocktons points and overall production is not close to this level in the longer runs afterwards.

Malone best playoffs on a 10+ game sample in the playoffs:
91-92, 16 games, 43 min, 29.1 pts on 61.8 ts %,10.6-13.1 ft, 11.3 reb (2.7 oreb), 2.6 ast/2.9 to, 1.4 stl, 1.2 blk. ws/48 22 %, 6,5 bpm, 1.5 vorp, 25 per.
Per 100 Poss: 36.1 pts, 14 reb, 3.3 ast, 1.7 stl, 1.5 blk.

So in terms of their peak production in the playoffs, it's actually close. Malone is the leading scorer and 1st option though, and that's always the most valuable thing to have in the playoffs. They also lost to the Blazers in 2 close last games in the 92 playoffs due to Stockton having two terrible games, while Malone kept producing. Their best shot at making the finals before the later runs.

The thing with Stockton is that this younger peak in 1988 +/- was not the same Stockton that played in the later runs, while Malone kept his production steady for most of the 90's and even won MVP's late in them, if not 100 % deservedly so that's at another level than Stockton in terms of impact.

Stockton averaged 36.7 min, 14.1 pts on 56.6 ts % with only 0.8 threes made per game and 4 free throws attempted, 10.7 ast/3 to, 3.4 rebs, 1.7 stls from 1990 to 1998 in the playoffs.
That's not someone you can compare to an consistent All NBA player +/- in Karl Malone who had from 90-98 in the playoffs:
41.6 min, 27.1 pts on 53.2 ts %, 11.4 reb(2.8 oreb), 3.2 ast/2.7 to, 1.4 stl, 0.9 blk. Also in the 2 last finals runs we have +/- available where he is at +150 compared to Stocktons +49.

So it's not like I am saying Karl Malone was perfect, his ts % dropped significantly in the postseason, but John Stockton was not much better at just 3.4 ts % more on 13 points less as the 2nd or 3rd option in the offense.
Karl Malone was a better and more impactful basketball player for the totality of their careers, but the peak discussion is very close imo, but Stockton was not close to that 20 pts 14 ast 3-4 steals high ts % player in the 90's where they had their deepest playoff runs, and was not even close to getting two MVP's in his career.

I could go more into depth with this, but I think the point is proven imo. I don't think Stocktons production in the postseason in the 90's matches his overall resume and hype from basic volume watchers. 14 pts and 10.7 assists on ok to good efficiency with 1.7 steals, this production was matched by Rondo from 2007 to 2012 with 38.5 min 14.5 pts, 9.2 ast/2.8 to, 6 reb, 2 stl on 48.7 ts % +262 +/- who made one All NBA third team, 4 All Stars and 2x first defensive teams and 2x second defensive teams during this period. So you could say Rondos superior defense and rebounding compensates for his lesser ts % and slightly worse playmaking by the outside stats.

Was Rajon Rondo, a weak All NBA player during that whole playoff period or worse at the start of that run, comparable to All NBA first team players in MVP contention like Dirk or Dwight Howard? Because that's who Malone is compared to All Time and in terms of what he has produced, even if he is overrated and not as good as Dirk, he was still a bonafide First Team All NBA player that at least kept his production going as a 1st option in the playoffs, and he made All Defensive First Teams in his MVP season. I don't know whether that was deserved, but you should see that the level of difference in impact at this point is pretty far beyond Stockton who produces like a weak All Star in the postseason +/- for their longest runs in the 90's without going further in depth here. Even in those peak Stockton years, he was not a playmaker like Magic or Steve Nash, and certainly not at that level in the 90's, where his ability to penetrate into the lane like in 1987-88 was not at the same level due to much slower speed = less overall impact to create better shots for his teammates by creating pressure on his own.

First of all you're the one that started nitpicking accolades on this thread.
Secondly, your definition of Stockton's assists is exactly this. Your own definition.
It doesn't count for anything.
Stockton is the all time leader in assists and he's not going to lose this record anytime soon.
Just like his steals record.
Malone isn't leading any meaningful stat category in history.
That doesn't mean much unless someone (yourself on this convo) is trying to downgrade another player by not recognising his accomplishments.

Yes, because you were unprecise in your comparison of accolades to make your post look better. So I wasn't going to let you lazily make your own argument look better because you are biased toward looking more "right" instead of presenting precise facts about Stocktons accolades.
All time leading categories and production in the regular season does not mean you are as good as MVP level players, or else James Harden has a top 10 all time case or better.
Stockton fell off in the playoffs, where it matters, nor would being a stat leader all time automatically mean you are as good as Malone.
Carmelo Anthony could have scored 25 pts and grabbed 10 rebounds for 25 years and be the NBA all time leading scorer and rebounder, while still being a poor contributor to winning basketball because he played **** defense and selfish, inefficient offense with bad playmaking etc.
So no, just listing that is not enough to prove anything.
I defined those assists and I shared an example of him throwing basic passes that inflate his assists numbers, where Malone does the heavy lifting in terms of making a move in the post and scoring. You posted nothing to prove your point except repeating words and denial of everything that was thrown at you, refusing to even comment on anything I wrote to make my case.
Stockton isn't leading any meaningful stat category in history in the playoffs either. And a difference of a couple of positions is not that impactful, especially when you consider that points is a more valuable stat than assists, because points ultimately win you the game, and you don't need an assist to score a point.
Also, the difference in accolades alone and lack of production in the playoffs, the fact Stockton was not even the 2nd option for part of the 90's, does not make your argument as good as my detailed points.
Where am I not recognizing Stocktons accomplishments or downgrading him? I am objectively looking deeper into it, and proving/making a very strong case for that one player was just better and more impactful over a long period than the other. While you put up amazing insight like "Stockton is the leader of stats thus he is as great as Malone".
What is next? Michael Jordan put ball in basket more than others so he good. I think you are the one downgrading the entire game of basketball by refusing to even acknowledge the insane amount of depth this game has when you dive into it, and trying to "win" an argument by listing the **** all time assists and steals list as the answer to basketball impact.

I do get the vibe that I am talking to someone who decides that they are right and sticks with it, regardless of anything else, so no point in arguing further.

I've voted for Malone on this thread too.
That doesn't mean i disrespect an all time great like Stockton. When I say it's close, it's exactly this. Stockton is one of the greatest guards of all time.
There's a difference between having a preference and trying to downgrade and disrespect another player because he's not of your liking.
Learn to respect.

[Doctor MJ]

Most franchises have a clear top player of all time (Chi, Clev, Den, SA, GS, NY, Milw, Orl, Indy, Tor, ATL, Miami, Hou, Dallas, Minny)

Some franchises just don't have enough history to really have one all time great (Sac-not counting the Big O, Char, NO, Brk/NJ, and some others).

Others have many options-but of these 5 franchises, who is their top all time guy?

For the Kings, all the big accomplishments occurred before they got to Sac, and before they were called the Kings. Forced to pick a Sac King player, I’d go with Divac.

Hornets - if we include the first run, then Zo and Baron are the two best players they’ve had. Kemba would be my choice for the second run.

NO - Chris Paul

For the Nets, I’d say Julius Erving. For the NBA years it’s Kidd.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pipfan]

Do you consider Wade or Lebron as all time best Heat ?

Wade, for sure. LBJ was only there 4 years. It has to be Wade