RealGM

It obviously is, but I suppose the NBA changed the rules at some point because a lot of people online think it was clean. Anyone who has ever played basketball will tell you that lifting your pivot foot and landing on either foot is a walk.

Left foot established as pivot (1), right foot step (2), shoot.

Legal

The first one clearly is not a travel. Clean stop => establish pivot foot as left foot => pivots all you want on left pivot foot => take your second step with the right foot => release ball before any foot touches the floor again
The second one is not so clean on the pivot foot because he kinda shuffles both feets before establishing pivot foot But I guess it's close enough for the NBA ^^

What is a travel and actually happens a lot in the NBA is that a guy will clearly take one or even two steps BEFORE stopping and establishing pivot foot and then takes the extra step.

For me the real issue with this specific move is the inconsistance of the referees.
Sometimes they will call a travel on the first action which is 100% textbook clean, and then later in the same game they will swallow their whistle when a guy takes two complete steps before pivoting.
This is in fact the real problem with a lot of NBA whistles I think.

In late 10s Brandon Davies started doing stepthrough in EL and some referees whistled travel while others didn't

I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

Step throughs are legal.

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

NoStatsGuy wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

NoStatsGuy wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

This and it would piss me off so badly. Refs in Europe obsess over the ball leaving your hand before you start moving - eventhough that's incredibly difficult to gauge in real time resulting in multiple bad travel calls.

I also used to take a short jab step and stop and then follow through as a hesitation move to throw defenders off and refs in Europe would call traveling on that all the time.

FrodoBaggins wrote:

NoStatsGuy wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

If the ball is released before a player lands, how is it a travel?

Both plays in the video look legal to me.

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

I started to play in France as a kid in the 90's and it was considered as part of the "fundemental starter pack" move. It was taught to kids pretty early (12/13yo) in every club I played for. Even now we still teach this move to kids, I think it's pretty old school in fact

Mr Puddles wrote:

NoStatsGuy wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

This and it would piss me off so badly. Refs in Europe obsess over the ball leaving your hand before you start moving - eventhough that's incredibly difficult to gauge in real time resulting in multiple bad travel calls.

I also used to take a short jab step and stop and then follow through as a hesitation move to throw defenders off and refs in Europe would call traveling on that all the time.

Same in France. To this day at amateur level they still focus very much on "ball touches the floor before pivot foot leaves it" but i guess everybody is so familiar with this that nobody ever argues these calls, it's part of how the game is played. Then we have to explain 12yo why this NBA guy could take 4 steps before putting the ball down ^^'

I always think of how we shoot a normal layup. Right foot down (pivot), then left foot down and right foot up. As long as the right foot doesn't come back down-not a travel.

Wemby's 1st move clean. 2nd one I'd say he dragged the pivot, so a travel

FrodoBaggins wrote:

NoStatsGuy wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

it was never a travel. Just some refs are not able to call it properly, at lower levels.



you can even find some proto Eurosteps being called a travel, in the 70s.

He moved his pivot with the action of taking the first step which you can't do. Everything else was okay but the pivot foot has to stay consistent and on the ground all times.

FrodoBaggins wrote:It obviously is, but I suppose the NBA changed the rules at some point because a lot of people online think it was clean. Anyone who has ever played basketball will tell you that lifting your pivot foot and landing on either foot is a walk.

Watch on YouTube

he doesn't lift his pivot foot in either move. his left in the first move,,,and his right in the second

TheAlchemist wrote:He moved his pivot with the action of taking the first step which you can't do. Everything else was okay but the pivot foot has to stay consistent and on the ground all times.

No you are wrong. You can lift the foot.

FrodoBaggins wrote:It obviously is, but I suppose the NBA changed the rules at some point because a lot of people online think it was clean. Anyone who has ever played basketball will tell you that lifting your pivot foot and landing on either foot is a walk.

Watch on YouTube

Did they change the rules or clarify?

Your last sentence says, anyone who has ever played basketball will tell you that lifting your pivot foot and landing on either foot is a walk, would they?

How do we explain layups then? First step is your pivot foot, second step is non pivot foot, you lift your pivot foot to jump, BUT, you have to shoot or pass before your foot touches the ground.

Now, what we can argue is that his pivot foot slid, and that's a travel, but there's never actually been a rule that you can't lift your pivot foot as far as I know.

You are correct that refs would call those travels, but sometimes they wouldn't, and what was clarified, not changed is that taking a step with your non pivot foot can't just be a travel on this move and then not a travel on this other move (eg: layup). Basically they made it consistent because some called and some didn't.

Interestingly, for some reason, women's basketball and their refs were more consistent with the rules as written, and women and WNBA players had been doing the one foot step through since as long as I can remember. Many people will remember the argument KG and Candace had about it on TV, and by the rules, Candace was correct, but by experience, especially if you consider lower level experience where refs will make some calls based on something looking off, KG was correct that refs would call that or something like that travel, which meant many male players (like us) would come up considering it such.

Another interesting thing is that better basketball, which had different series's, shooting, ball handling, post moves, etc, in their post moves taught the step through as a fundamental move for players to have.

If we do look at how the pivot foot rule is written, player establishes a pivot foot, steps with non pivot foot and shots or passes before his foot returns to the ground should not be a travel.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

FrodoBaggins wrote:

NoStatsGuy wrote:
i feel you on this.

i remember so many occasions, where refs called travels that were 100% not travels tho. IDK where you played but i played youth up to semi pro level (3rd highest league) in gerrmany. And most travel calls over here come from catching the ball and starting to dribble. 80% of the refs in germany were just guessing and made travel calls, just to make calls at my time.

When it comes to the two clips i can tell you these two would 100% be called travels during my time in germany. But that doesnt neccessarily mean they were.

First clip definitley is not a travel as per NBA rulebook. Second one looks like a blatant travel to me. But its not as easy to tell anymore. I feel like refs went so liberal with that rule, that its just not as black and white anymore at this point.

Clean step-throughs/up-and-unders were done off two feet in the leagues I played in. Kevin McHale-style off two feet; those wouldn't be called. The one-foot step-through nonsense from a deadstop established pivot would be called 99% of the time.

it was never a travel. Just some refs are not able to call it properly, at lower levels.

Watch on YouTube

you can even find some proto Eurosteps being called a travel, in the 70s.

There is a big difference between your clip and Wemby's.

Wemby stops his movement, considers shooting the ball, as both feet are flat on the ground, and then he opts to take two steps.

FrodoBaggins wrote:I must be getting old because they called that a travel at every level I played at. NBA rules, though.

I'm gonna assume your playing career stopped at high school which has a different set of rules than college or the NBA.