RealGM

Somebody made a comment like this in the Bulls forum and it really stuck out to me. Josh Giddey has been a monster so far. He's really become a complete player offensively. He can do just about anything on offense. However, the one thing he doesn't have in his bag is the shameless foul baiting. He drives pretty often and averages 6.0 FTA so far. Not bad, but nothing crazy. He doesn't flail around and hunt for free throws. That would be the last piece to "complete" his offensive repertoire. It really helps when a star isn't playing at their best in a given game. Just hunt for FTs. Easy, efficient buckets.

Is shameless baiting FTs a must at this point if you want a complete game? We've seen how incredibly valuable it is for SGA and the thunder. It's also getting extremely tiresome and is terrible to watch.

I feel like you'd be a fool NOT to do this now a days. Is it a must to have a truly complete game? And at what point will the NBA put an end to it? If more guys start doing it I think they'll HAVE to put an end to it. They're going to have to eventually.

Yes, "Ethical hoops" loses you points, that's how the game is officiated.
No, Giddy isn't the one leaving money on the table by not baiting for fouls, he's not nearly good enough of a scorer off the dribble to fool anyone he's getting fouled.

doncic is really really bad too

dballislife wrote:doncic is really really bad too

While he can be really bad, he also has that "strength" whistle though, like Jokic, LeBron and similar strong players, that often get clobbered on drives with no foul called. Anytime I see Luka I see both worlds, some weak fouls called, and a lot of no-calls when he got absolutely smacked and would throw SGA to the 5th row.

Tell me in you're in love with Giddey without admitting you're a 15 year old girl.

Goon wrote:

dballislife wrote:doncic is really really bad too

While he can be really bad, he also has that "strength" whistle though, like Jokic, LeBron and similar strong players, that often get clobbered on drives with no foul called. Anytime I see Luka I see both worlds, some weak fouls called, and a lot of no-calls when he got absolutely smacked and would throw SGA to the 5th row.

I love Luka's game, but he is definitely one of the most egregious foul baiter out there. The constant lean forward shots, hanging shots screaming for a foul...

ScrantonBulls wrote:Somebody made a comment like this in the Bulls forum and it really stuck out to me. Josh Giddey has been a monster so far. He's really become a complete player offensively. He can do just about anything on offense. However, the one thing he doesn't have in his bag is the shameless foul baiting. He drives pretty often and averages 6.0 FTA so far. Not bad, but nothing crazy. He doesn't flail around and hunt for free throws. That would be the last piece to "complete" his offensive repertoire. It really helps when a star isn't playing at their best in a given game. Just hunt for FTs. Easy, efficient buckets.

Is shameless baiting FTs a must at this point if you want a complete game? We've seen how incredibly valuable it is for SGA and the thunder. It's also getting extremely tiresome and is terrible to watch.

I feel like you'd be a fool NOT to do this now a days. Is it a must to have a truly complete game? And at what point will the NBA put an end to it? If more guys start doing it I think they'll HAVE to put an end to it. They're going to have to eventually.

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Luka is the biggest foul baiter, he also complains the most. He complains to the officials when a defender's pinky finger touches his skin.

No shot in the game has higher efficiency than FTs.

It's helpful to draw FTs when operating as a scorer, keeps defenders off you.

I don’t think Giddey will ever have that kind of pull with the refs. It’s not always about the flopping and flailing it comes down to how much contact the refs allow.

Some dudes get hammered and you can’t look at others.

Ritzo wrote:Luka is the biggest foul baiter, he also complains the most. He complains to the officials when a defender's pinky finger touches his skin.

I take umbrage with this. Jimmy Butler is the worst. Without his "generous" whistle, he'd be role player.

what is shameless foul baiting...?

its pro basketball. luka, SGA, Harden, Giannis, lebron, etc all do it...what do they have in common...all MVP caliber players. If giddy isn't doing it, he is a freaking idiot. Kawhi doesn't do it...maybe the only guy that doesn't that is MVP caliber....using all elements available skills within the legal limits of the game should be required of all players....there is no moral code...that makes foul baiting bad.

the antidote to foul baiting is...NOT fouling. baiting guys to foul is smart and effective.

Luka says..."imma get a good shot off and the only way to stop me is fouling me" and people complaining about luka????

lol thats the genius of Luka and SGA and Harden and MJ before them. foul baiting is part of the game...

CobraCommander wrote:what is shameless foul baiting...?

its pro basketball. luka, SGA, Harden, Giannis, lebron, etc all do it...what do they have in common...all MVP caliber players. If giddy isn't doing it, he is a freaking idiot. Kawhi doesn't do it...maybe the only guy that doesn't that is MVP caliber....using all elements available skills within the legal limits of the game should be required of all players....there is no moral code...that makes foul baiting bad.

the antidote to foul baiting is...NOT fouling. baiting guys to foul is smart and effective.

Luka says..."imma get a good shot off and the only way to stop me is fouling me" and people complaining about luka????

lol thats the genius of Luka and SGA and Harden and MJ before them. foul baiting is part of the game...

Those players you listed aren't always looking for "good shots" they're looking to generate contact to garner free throws, the actual shot quality is poor in terms of making the basket. Luka leans in and flails, Harden used to outright throw himself into defenders, Embiid collapses to the floor, SGA flails his arms begging for calls, etc. These aren't fundamentally sound shot attempts - they're attempts to manipulate the refs.

It's sadly a portion of the game but it's downstream of being a performative player + ref favor. Jordan Poole flopping vs SGA flopping isn't going to yield the same results with the refs.

Mephariel wrote:

ScrantonBulls wrote:Somebody made a comment like this in the Bulls forum and it really stuck out to me. Josh Giddey has been a monster so far. He's really become a complete player offensively. He can do just about anything on offense. However, the one thing he doesn't have in his bag is the shameless foul baiting. He drives pretty often and averages 6.0 FTA so far. Not bad, but nothing crazy. He doesn't flail around and hunt for free throws. That would be the last piece to "complete" his offensive repertoire. It really helps when a star isn't playing at their best in a given game. Just hunt for FTs. Easy, efficient buckets.

Is shameless baiting FTs a must at this point if you want a complete game? We've seen how incredibly valuable it is for SGA and the thunder. It's also getting extremely tiresome and is terrible to watch.

I feel like you'd be a fool NOT to do this now a days. Is it a must to have a truly complete game? And at what point will the NBA put an end to it? If more guys start doing it I think they'll HAVE to put an end to it. They're going to have to eventually.

What do you mean by this exactly. Let say Giddey decides to foul bait tomorrow. What would he be doing differently?

Head snap back, arms flailing, falling over legs swirling like a propeller. Complete with primal scream. Get back up. FTs. Repeat. Don't forget to hook the defender's arm to make like he's hindering you and complain to refs about it.

Sadly every player is leaving points and money on table by not foul baiting.

For example, imagine Edwards taking 6 more free throws per game (on average), adding that to his game.

Doncic averages 11+ free throws per game Edwards 5+.

Cam Thomas for all of his flaws could really benefit from being a shameless Shai / Brunson type flopper.

He takes a lot of contact on his shots, but refuses to act like he got hit by a sniper so rarely gets the call. If he emulated those two by flopping on defense that would also help him on that end as well.

I think it's against the spirit of the game and absolutely pathetic. I totally love and respect the fact that the Jays of The Celtics have never been pathetic foul baiters.

Good luck to the players who get away with it, I don't think it's much different to the cheats in soccer who constantly dive/feign simulation despite video evidence proving no contact gas been made aka Christiano Ronaldo being a major villian)

There is nothing praise worthy of being a foul baiter.

And the fans who encourage this behaviour are pretty much part of the problem.

Ethically speaking there is absolutely no difference between flopping and foul baiting

Its essentially manipulative actions to try con dumb ass refs.

And in fact the amount of fouls and free throws awarded per quarter is seriously damaging the game's product and watchability

doogie_hauser wrote:I think it's against the spirit of the game and absolutely pathetic. I totally love and respect the fact that the Jays of The Celtics have never been pathetic foul baiters.

Good luck to the players who get away with it, I don't think it's much different to the cheats in soccer who constantly dive/feign simulation despite video evidence proving no contact gas been made aka Christiano Ronaldo being a major villian)

There is nothing praise worthy of being a foul baiter.

And the fans who encourage this behaviour are pretty much part of the problem.

Ethically speaking there is absolutely no difference between flopping and foul baiting

Its essentially manipulative actions to try con dumb ass refs.

And in fact the amount of fouls and free throws awarded per quarter is seriously damaging the game's product and watchability

Agree.

Said this in a different thread, but they should add a stat for foul baiting. Like % rate. Something. For players AND referees.

With a metric, players are ‘called out’ for their transgressions. Downstream effects could be ridicule (by players and fans), contract negotiations, and most importantly, a legit reason for referees to change their behaviors.

Its tragic because the 2 most boring things in basketball are: 1) Soft fouls, 2) Free-throws.
So the foul-baiters are doubly boring...
Whereas when you watch Michael Jordan driving and being fouled by the 90s Knicks or 80s Pistons, its actually very entertaining.
So hard fouls are entertaining, but soft fouls are the opposite of entertaining.

I will never understand why the NBA so desperately wants flopping to be a major part of the game