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For as much as we talk about Lebron , Jordan Magic etc (Jokic is starting to get his due)

In terms of passing , scoring efficiency etc. Both of these guys are incredible

It's MJ.

Players can't just be great players anymore, they have to be the "greatest in history."

Jokic is in the conversation. Luka is nowhere near.

Jokic has a case, Luka is nowhere near as he has to have the ball to dominate.
Truly offensively dominant players find ways to massively impact the game without the ball too.

Petergrifindor wrote:It's MJ.

Did it both ends of the floor

no

I think Jokic is, I don’t see the case for Luka though.

Luka has never been super efficient, at least not consistently. And a big reason Luka has the ridiculous offensive stats is his USG and being the center of a heliocentric offense.

Don’t get me wrong, Luka is no doubt an elite of the elite offensive players. But what’s the difference between Luka and say prime James Harden? Prime Harden was more efficient than Luka, he led the league in assists 2x and scoring 3x. His stats also benefited from being the center of a heliocentric offense.

This is what separates Jokic from everyone else. Jokic usually isn’t even in the top 30 in Time Per Possession most seasons. Jokic has never had a season where he’s been at league average efficiency, let alone below league average. If you were to look at Jokic’s stats since he entered his prime, you’d assume he was the center of a heliocentric offense. But again he’s not, Murray has the ball in his hands more and takes more shots than Jokic some years. Jokic is also elite at every facet of offense. He’s the best low post and back to the basket scorer of his era. He arguably has the best shot selection/IQ of his era. He’s led the league in TS% and practically every year he’s the top or one of the top high volume scorers when it comes to TS%z He’s one of the most efficient mid range shooters of his era (now he doesn’t take too many of these). And in his prime he’s been a 38% 3pt shooter. He’s arguably a top 5 passer to ever play the game.

And again a massive difference between Jokic and everyone else who has put up the huge scoring and facilitating seasons. He’s the most team offensive friendly player to ever put up stats like him. It’s not everyone stand around while he dribbled the ball for half the shot clock and guys waiting for a possible kick out or lob. When you play with Jokic, everyone is getting touches, everyone is moving. Why? Because the ball never sticks in his hands, it’s always moving.

Luka no doubt is a great all time offensive player. But if you’re looking for someone who is currently playing to make an argument for greatest offensive player of all time, I don’t see any argument for anyone not named Jokic.

ball_takes23 wrote:Jokic is in the conversation. Luka is nowhere near.

This.

Luka is fairly irrelevant when talking about historical comparisons, he is a poor man's Harden.

LarsV8 wrote:

ball_takes23 wrote:Jokic is in the conversation. Luka is nowhere near.

This.

Luka is fairly irrelevant when talking about historical comparisons, he is a poor man's Harden.

That's probably one of the dumbest basketball takes ever. Here are the career playoffs stats:

Luka 30.9 ppg / 7.8 apg / 9.2 rpb
Harden 22.5 ppg / 6.5 apg / 5.5 rpg

hagredionis wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:

ball_takes23 wrote:Jokic is in the conversation. Luka is nowhere near.

This.

Luka is fairly irrelevant when talking about historical comparisons, he is a poor man's Harden.

That's probably one of the dumbest basketball takes ever. Here are the career playoffs stats:

Luka 30.9 ppg / 7.8 apg / 9.2 rpb
Harden 22.5 ppg / 6.5 apg / 5.5 rpg

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

LarsV8 wrote:

hagredionis wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:
This.

Luka is fairly irrelevant when talking about historical comparisons, he is a poor man's Harden.

That's probably one of the dumbest basketball takes ever. Here are the career playoffs stats:

Luka 30.9 ppg / 7.8 apg / 9.2 rpb
Harden 22.5 ppg / 6.5 apg / 5.5 rpg

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

Cherry picking stats is not apples to apples comparison but ok here we go: 28.4 ppg / 5.7 apg / 7.1 apg

LarsV8 wrote:

hagredionis wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:
This.

Luka is fairly irrelevant when talking about historical comparisons, he is a poor man's Harden.

That's probably one of the dumbest basketball takes ever. Here are the career playoffs stats:

Luka 30.9 ppg / 7.8 apg / 9.2 rpb
Harden 22.5 ppg / 6.5 apg / 5.5 rpg

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

You sure you wanna do that? His dog crap percentages will not work in his favor along with no shows where he doesn’t even show up. He sucks, deal with it… hahaha

I think Duke nailed this, but Luca has to improve his efficiency significantly. Jokic is absolutely in the discussion.

They are among the greatest in terms of offensive talent. But MJ is the greatest. MJ had 10 scoring titles.

no, today's NBA is a pathetic joke with everything geared towards offense and putting up counting stats due to usage and no expectations from coaches to play defense. There's a reason slow, unathletic Europeans couldn't make the NBA back then when players were expected to play defense, sat if they couldn't, didn't have the ball 35% of the time and couldn't travel, carry, push off and force switches onto centers using illegal moving screens. It's like comparing numbers of today's QBs to those of the 70s and 80s

Since the word efficiency is misleading and overrated, and since the NBA now has way different rules that help get offensive numbers easily, I think the best 3 offensive players for now remain Wilt, Micheal and the Black Mamba.

When we find a way to compare apples ( past NBA) and oranges ( NBA easy scoring today ), maybe we will be able to make a comparison.

Dude, this isn’t the forum for that kind of topic - I’d try hitting up Reddit or something.
You’ll only get boomersplained to death about MJ’s greatness here.

SlimShady83 wrote:

Petergrifindor wrote:It's MJ.

Did it both ends of the floor

Great as an offensive basketball player and then offended the opponents on defense?

hagredionis wrote:

LarsV8 wrote:

hagredionis wrote:
That's probably one of the dumbest basketball takes ever. Here are the career playoffs stats:

Luka 30.9 ppg / 7.8 apg / 9.2 rpb
Harden 22.5 ppg / 6.5 apg / 5.5 rpg

Now just do Houston Harden for an apples to apples comparison.

Cherry picking stats is not apples to apples comparison but ok here we go: 28.4 ppg / 5.7 apg / 7.1 apg

That's not what we mean by cherry picking in three instances.

It doesn't make sense to compare career stats to stats of a player still in his prime, just like it doesn't make sense to compare career stats to a guys state after 2 years and say, "well they are both career stats".

While I disagree with the take, I agree that if one was comparing them it makes far more sense to compare Houston Harden's numbers.