NBA players thoughts>>>Real GM stat hawks???

[kp117]

^^ LOL

^^ LOL

[nate33]

Just as an addendum for those claiming that Paul is a better defender than Davis: Paul's defensive +/- is actually a positive 0.87, so either he's a good individual defender but a poor team defender, or he's mediocre at best. His brilliance is all on the offensive end, but even there he doesn't impact his team as much as Davis does, so personally I'd rank him a notch below Davis overall regardless.

Using on/off numbers to compare players of different teams can be misleading. All those numbers say is that Baron and his fellow starters outplay Golden State's bench by a greater degree than Paul and his fellow starters outplay New Orleans' bench. It doesn't mean that Baron is better than Paul.

Also, I don't much care for using team defense numbers to measure a guard's defensive skills. Guards rely a lot on help defense. They funnel their man to certain spots and hope that their teammates step up to make the proper play or the proper rotation. If the teammates aren't getting the job done, the on/off numbers will suffer.

I think on/off defensive stats are better measurements for big men, because big men have a lot more help defense responsibility. I generally look more at counterpart PER to get an idea of how guards are defending. Paul's counterpart PER is 16.9. Baron's counterpart PER is 18.0. Neither numbers are great, but Paul's is better than Baron's.

[blkout]

Why do people even use +/-? It's possibly one of the most ridiculous and misleading stats kept.

[hermes]

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I'm really not a Baron-hater, he's in my top 10 for MVP, but I just love that FG%, a stat that's been around essentially forever because it's always been obvious to everyone in the game that it's very important, is now a "geek-boy" stat.

Meanwhile, I take opinions from pros about other pros with a boulder of salt.

man thats a lot of salt

[nate33]

Why do people even use +/-? It's possibly one of the most ridiculous and misleading stats kept.

I agree. It's very imprecise. At best, it's a good way to draw some generalizations if you have a very large sample size. The data gets better as the sample sizes increase for both "on" time and "off" time. And it's better if the player in question plays in lots of different combinations (not just with the same teammates).

You definitely can't look at Player A with a +4.0 differential and say he is better than Player B with a +3.0 differential. And the numbers are almost meaningless without a thousand or so minutes of "on" time and "off" time.

[NetsForce]

Please, please, tell me he called me out too =D!

[UGA Hayes]

Really players complimenting other players is like authors who ask other authors to say nice things about their book on their back cover. The author plrobably never read the book, and I'm guessing outside of the games they play agianst each other player and sportscenter players don't watch each other much either.

[conleyorbust]

Really players complimenting other players is like authors who ask other authors to say nice things about their book on their back cover. The author plrobably never read the book, and I'm guessing outside of the games they play agianst each other player and sportscenter players don't watch each other much either.

The thing is, players buy into hype about other players as much as fans do.

I think most people consider Baron to be a great player, I think most people (who aren't blinded by some irrational hatred) also consider VC to be a great player. You can still criticize their shortcomings, especially when it is within their capability to correct them. Baron's detractors don't say that he lacks skill or athletic capability, they say he shoots his team out of games sometimes when he could go for the kill by taking it to the rack. VCs detractors don't say that he doesn't help his team win games, they say a guy with his skills and body should be in the discussion for greatest guards of all time, not top 5 shooting guards in the season.

Stats do a good job of telling you which players are gonna lead successful teams.

[Datruth345]

Baron Davis is a g

thats all there is too it

[ambiglight]

"Respect from my peers is more important than anything," said Davis, a two-time All-Star. "When guys like Steve Nash and Tony Parker and other guards give me that respect - that's all that matters to me. People like Allen Iverson telling me they love my game and how much they respect me as a player."

Often we come on here and try to discredit Baron Davis because of FG% and other geek-boy stats, but when the actual NBA players come out and respect the crossover that just broke their ankles; I question whether Baron detractors just cant see past their stats and numbers and recognize real basketball talent in its purest form.

EDIT: Mentioning specific posters does nothing but lose you credibility.

-miller

Makes sense, its hard to take someones opinion seriously if they've never played basketball before or the last time they played was in another decade.

I love stats but most folks that know anything about stats know that we're real good at describing things that happened but not so good at describing what's going to happen.

So when people use stats in a hypothetical situation as all player comparisons tend to be unless they've actually played against each other the accuracy of the statistical model is always suspect. Folks make up formulas that automatically give a particular outcome and then say that proves something.

A surgeon doesn't look for validation from some chump on the street with the latest version of SPSS. A surgeon is judged by other surgeons and members of the medical profession.

So it is with players. Players could care less what the fat guy in the third row thinks about his jumpshot or willingness to pass. Players want to know whether the players they respect got the same respect for their game.

Frankly I'd like to see how the all-star game looked if only players were allowed to vote....Fans would be shocked at who is really considered good and who's just a product of media hype and fan legend.

[NO-KG-AI]

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^^ LOL

Just sayin, it sure looked like Baron was a level above Paul when he decided to start jacking up jumpers and Chris took the game over and won it.

You'd be lucky to find a credible person who thinks Baron is in the same tier as Chris right now. Thinking he is a level above Paul is just moronic, plain and simple.

[Copperhead]

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Just sayin, it sure looked like Baron was a level above Paul when he decided to start jacking up jumpers and Chris took the game over and won it.

You'd be lucky to find a credible person who thinks Baron is in the same tier as Chris right now. Thinking he is a level above Paul is just moronic, plain and simple.

Did you see Baron go headhunting on CP? CP was milking the clock and you could hear and read the lips of Baron tell his teammates something like "F**k him up" and CP drove the lane for a layup and Baron swung really hard hitting CP on the top of his head. CP made the basket and was fouled by Baron on the play. In the 4th, Baron couldn't flop enough to get the fouls on CP, he couldn't steal the ball so his only other option was to try to hurt the guy. He's probably going to try to go at Chris really hard in the next meeting.

[NO-KG-AI]

I believe there was a shot of Chris yelling to the coaches or assistants "nobody can **** me up" or something when the time expired. Black Jesus 1 I believe said it.

The point is, Baron had Chris in the beginning, he was in his head, and he was doing what he wanted with him, then he turned back into idiot Baron and Chris settled in and dominated.