Explain this remark by Iavaroni.

[Frosty]

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And while it's also true that he was injured, Worthy was never the same after Magic retired, his FG% bottoming out. It dropped by 4.5% that first year, then stayed at 44.7% for another year, then pitted out at 40.6% in his last year.

You can't draw any conclusions based on his drop in FG%. After his 91 playoff injury and then knee problems that forced him to have surgery in 92 he was a shadow of his former self.

I'm not saying Magic didn't set him up well, he did, but lets not attribute Worthy's decline to Magic's retirement. I know you mentioned injuries but really, that was the biggest factor, anyone who was a fan of Worthy like I was realized his days were numbered.

[tsherkin]

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You can't draw any conclusions based on his drop in FG%. After his 91 playoff injury and then knee problems that forced him to have surgery in 92 he was a shadow of his former self.

I don't mean to entirely put the blame on that FG% drop on Magic's departure, I'm well aware that Worthy had injuries that were part of it.

I'm not saying Magic didn't set him up well, he did, but lets not attribute Worthy's decline to Magic's retirement. I know you mentioned injuries but really, that was the biggest factor, anyone who was a fan of Worthy like I was realized his days were numbered.

Yeah but he was never a great scorer anyway; he had one move out of the right-side baseline post up, his jumper was never THAT good and he didn't have especially notable handles. He scored like Marion, by moving very well without the ball, running hard in transition and, to a lesser extent, hitting the offensive glass (Marion is much, much better at this than was Worthy). He was poor at drawing fouls, though he was a good FT shooter.

You see what I'm talking about though? As a scorer, Magic MADE Worthy. James was very athletic and knew how to use that pretty well and he could come up with buckets in big games but he was never a spectacular shot-creator, most of his offense came from the work of Magic, Kareem, Cooper and Scott (and Nixon, in the earliest parts of his career).

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I agree with where you're coming from, but have you ever seen Larry Hughes try to "finish" anything lately? The guy has no lift, when he does finish, he does it below the rim (usually missing actually)

Oh, he's been godawful this year, no doubt. Hughes was a mistake for Cleveland and I said it the moment I heard that they'd signed him. In fact, I may have yelled some kind of profanity-laced rant at that particular bit of news because it was so (Please Use More Appropriate Word) of the Cleveland management to do that. He's a TERRIBLE fit next to Lebron, no question.

I merely meant that historically, when healthy (which is a huge caveat, I know), Hughes has displayed the athleticism and coordination to finish alley-oops and this from players with much less precision than had Magic (I'm not dissing Lebron, he throws a fine oop, I was referring to the other players Hughes has played with in his career).

[tsherkin]

I'm glad you mentioned Bird.

I think he's a much better comparison for LBJ in terms of passing. Whereas Magic's entire game was built around setting up his teammates, Bird and LBJ were/are both exceptional passers whose abilities in that facet take a back seat to their scoring.

I'll leave it to Sherk to expand on the details. But for starters, their averages are virtually identical (6.5 apg for LBJ to 6.3 apg for Bird) and Bird was every bit as slick as LeBron is. But I feared both those guys as scorers/shooters first. Magic, on the other hand, could dominate without scoring a single point.

I think that stylistically speaking, this is a good example but since I consider Bird one of the most technically proficient passers in NBA history, I'm disinclined to agree that Lebron compares directly as a passer because I feel Bird was a lot better. But in terms of role, I think it's a beautiful example.

Although let me echo what Sherk said -- it's no crime that LeBron takes a backseat to guys like Magic and Stockton and Oscar. In fact, it shows you how truly remarkable he is, for all his physical talent and scoring ability, that he can be favorably compared as a passer.

Just goes to show what an amazingly unique player he is.

I just want to touch on my comment re: Stockton a moment.

I don't for a second pretend to believe that Stockton was a better passer than Lebron in the sense that he could throw passes better than LBJ overall.

He had a better left hand but I only really mentioned him because he took one style of passing and ran with it. He is the paragon of the fundamental point guard. Stockton rarely took chances the way Magic did and I've seen Lebron complete passes Stockton would never have tried. But he knew everything there ever was to know about the pick-and-roll and how to work with a finishing big, how to find shooters off of dribble drives, etc.

Another aside, Nash actually reminds me a lot more of Magic than does Lebron, if we're only to consider passing.

[Mike Hunt]

I think what Iavaroni is saying is that LeBron is capable of making all those tough passes Magic's famous for (debatable), while being a much more capable scorer. Basically, he's saying that because LeBron can drop 50 on you, it makes his passes that much more effective.

[tsherkin]

I think what Iavaroni is saying is that LeBron is capable of making all those tough passes Magic's famous for (debatable), while being a much more capable scorer. Basically, he's saying that because LeBron can drop 50 on you, it makes his passes that much more effective.

And I disagree, I have seen Magic toss a lot of passes I don't think Lebron can make. Remember, Magic spent his entire career using the pass as his primary weapon, whereas with Lebron, his scoring is his primary weapon; they're the inverse of one another, in that way. Both are good at the other's primary skill but not as good.

[Craig McDermott]

I think what Iavaroni is saying is that LeBron is capable of making all those tough passes Magic's famous for (debatable), while being a much more capable scorer. Basically, he's saying that because LeBron can drop 50 on you, it makes his passes that much more effective.

Khunt, he's saying Bron is better. Phooey. I've seen both of them play and it's clear that statement is dubious and just another example of the hyperbole from observers that has marked his career from HS on.

[Sedale Threatt]

Hyperbole? Not only has he lived up to every ounce of hype, some think he's exceeded expectations. So if anything, he might have actually been underrated coming out of high school.

[tsherkin]

Hyperbole? Not only has he lived up to every ounce of hype, some think he's exceeded expectations. So if anything, he might have actually been underrated coming out of high school.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he was "underrated," since everyone and their mom thought Lebron would become a superstar.

But he has certainly lived up to his hype.

[Craig McDermott]

Hyperbole? Not only has he lived up to every ounce of hype, some think he's exceeded expectations. So if anything, he might have actually been underrated coming out of high school.

King James. Savior of the league. Future of the league. The next Jordan. The next Magic.

Hasn't lived up to any of those yet. TOO. LOFTY. He doesn't have the impact of the two guys he was said to have supplanted.

[tsherkin]

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King James. Savior of the league. Future of the league. The next Jordan. The next Magic.

Hasn't lived up to any of those yet. TOO. LOFTY. He doesn't have the impact of the two guys he was said to have supplanted.

ACTUALLY...

Lebron James has done pretty well, all considering; his statistical achievement is unchallenged and his lack of team success in terms of championships has a lot to do with him not having one of the best coaches in NBA history and a team assembled intelligently around him.

Instead, he's got a twisted fool of a GM and a one-dimensional head coach. That kind of puts a crimp on his ability to be effective.

Jordan didn't do anything of significance until his team improved and didn't even make the Finals until he had Phil Jackson coaching the team.

Magic had Jack McKinney and Paul Westhead as a rookie but he also had the league MVP in Kareem, as well as Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, Michael Cooper, Spencer Haywood, Jim Chones, etc. He had a hell of a team and then two years later, he got Pat Riley as a coach and had James Worthy the year after.

Where's Lebron's Pippen/Worthy?

[eyejayem]

I would never debate or compare between players in this league 10 years apart let alone 20 years. This is tough. Lebron I could definately see being compared to Bird rather than Magic. I think the highlights is what people want to compare.

I agree with what was said before He's a scorer first like Bird. But capable of making a pass like Magic but he is not the full time PG like Magic because he has to play off-ball also. So Imagine if he played Point all the time from of the top of the circle and had four players at his disposal instead of two when he's on the wing? Scoring would be down assists would be up. But he doesnt have any help like Jordan so he has to be plan A through Z.

All these questions about whether he has lived up to the hype, makes me wonder are you serious? We can't compare greats unless they played at the same time but we can compare the achievements and muturity. Lebron just turned 23 and is easily top3 in the league if not at the top. Like the three greats above his defense is coming around to match his offense. Magic stepped on a championship team and Bird stepped into a great supporting cast, but like Mike when he came into the league his support is mediocre at best. But unlike Mike he went to the finals with the team on his back at 22.

I think he is in good company but in 10 or 15 years(wow) when his career is over we can debate on who did better but I think he is on pace to be up thereand carry the greatness torch.

[Biff]

I would never debate or compare between players in this league 10 years apart let alone 20 years. This is tough. Lebron I could definately see being compared to Bird rather than Magic. I think the highlights is what people want to compare.

I agree with what was said before He's a scorer first like Bird. But capable of making a pass like Magic but he is not the full time PG like Magic because he has to play off-ball also. So Imagine if he played Point all the time from of the top of the circle and had four players at his disposal instead of two when he's on the wing? Scoring would be down assists would be up. But he doesnt have any help like Jordan so he has to be plan A through Z.

All these questions about whether he has lived up to the hype, makes me wonder are you serious? We can't compare greats unless they played at the same time but we can compare the achievements and muturity. Lebron just turned 23 and is easily top3 in the league if not at the top. Like the three greats above his defense is coming around to match his offense. Magic stepped on a championship team and Bird stepped into a great supporting cast, but like Mike when he came into the league his support is mediocre at best. But unlike Mike he went to the finals with the team on his back at 22.

I think he is in good company but in 10 or 15 years(wow) when his career is over we can debate on who did better but I think he is on pace to be up thereand carry the greatness torch.

Please don't say unlike Mike. The eastern conference is a joke today. It was FAR AND AWAY better when Jordan was young. Jordan could have led that team to the finals just as easily as Lebron did.

[LAKESHOW]

magic is widely recognized as the best passer of ALL TIME.

pleeeeeze.

and even if some disagree and place stockton up there, lebron still aint on that level.