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I should give him a small break since last night was his first game of the year. But ZERO assists in 29 minutes, playing alongside guys like Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Brad Miller and John Salmons? How is that possible for a guy who is supposed to be a PG?

I'm looking at Bibby's career numbers -- he hasn't averaged 7 APG since the 2000-01 season, and has averaged less than 6 APG in five of his last 6 years (obviously not including this season)


So my question is -- when did he stop being a PG and turned into a small SG? Or was he never really a real playmaking guard???

1st game all season. Cut the man some slack. At least he was scoring.

He's always been shoot first.

maybe because only really good PGs can avg 10 assists

His defense was a concern...

girlygirl wrote:I should give him a small break since last night was his first game of the year. But ZERO assists in 29 minutes, playing alongside guys like Kevin Martin, Ron Artest, Brad Miller and John Salmons? How is that possible for a guy who is supposed to be a PG?

I'm looking at Bibby's career numbers -- he hasn't averaged 7 APG since the 2000-01 season, and has averaged less than 6 APG in five of his last 6 years (obviously not including this season)


So my question is -- when did he stop being a PG and turned into a small SG? Or was he never really a real playmaking guard???

With due respect, from 01-02 to 04-05, he played with Webber. Divac was on the team through the 03-04 season and Rick Adelman coached the team through the 05-06 season. And Brad Miller has been a King since the 03-04 season.

The Kings have run the ball through their bigs at the high post the entire time under Adelman, which takes away a lot of Bibby's playmaking opportunities.

Miller has averaged 3.5 to 4.7 apg during his time in Sacramento; Webber never averaged below 4.1 apg as a King and actually averaged about 4.6 to 5.5 apg with Bibby.

Divac averaged 2.9 to 5.3 apg as a King.

So I mean you start looking at the volume of assists coming out of the bigs and it becomes clear that Bibby was literally incapable of averaging a super-high volume of assists per game, because he wasn't touching the ball enough. Advance the ball across the timeline, find Webber/Divac/Miller, then work from there.

And last year, you had Artest slowing the offense down with his post ups, denying Bibby assists, etc.

It's really not a Bibby thing, so much as a situation thing, even post-Adelman and now that Webber and Divac are gone.

And as far as his FIRST game of the season after a recovery from injury...

Attacking him for that would just be silly.

Exactly. Well said tsherkin.... Bibby is capable to put high assists but there is factors like tsherkin said...i.e. situation...

To L&H_05: He played above average D right BEFORE he was injured this year and last year as welll...Bibby had said that he will dedicate himself into defense...Bibby actually did...Bibby pressure the ballhandler, half court traps and etc... He have to be balance PG to have success in this team...I will be content if he average 18/4/7 and played above avg D....

As tsherkin said, a ton of it has been situational. Even after Webber and Divac left, we've still had Brad, who will also take some assists away. But I also think that this role has kind of become a habit for Mike and that he really has become more of a shoot first PG. It's not because of a lack of skill in that regard (he's proven he is a fine passer), it's more about his mentality. Part of it (and this is mostly talking about the last couple of years) is that he has felt like this is his team and it seems that, to him, that means taking a lot of shots. This is one of the reasons he's frankly a terrible leader, and never should be put in that position (and why on a team with a clear guy leading, he'd be much better off). In a different role, I could see his assist numbers going up. On the bright side though, he did prove last night that he won't need any time to find his shot again.

Also, to be fair, I think he probably would have averaged about 1 more APG last year if Kenny Thomas could make a f**king layup.

So if Bibby is traded (as is being rumored) to a team that needs him to be a pass first guy, you are saying he is capable of doing this?

girlygirl wrote:So if Bibby is traded (as is being rumored) to a team that needs him to be a pass first guy, you are saying he is capable of doing this?

Absolutely.

Dude was never a PG, he moved into that role but couldnt fufill it.

dabadestalbo69 wrote:Dude was never a PG, he moved into that role but couldnt fufill it.

What are you talking about? He is a PG... Did you read the post mentioned in this thread? IMO that clears up the "PG" issue....

[quote="tsherkin"][/quote]

Yeah exactly, right on point. It's not his fault he happened to play in an Adelman offense that relies on high post passing from the big man and they happened to have two of the best passing big man of all time.

The two years prior to getting traded the Kings he averaged 8.1 and 8.4 in his second and third seasons of his career respectively.

around the same time tony parker stopped passing

Even though he tallied 0 assists he made some terrific passes that either ended up with the guy getting fouled before the shot or just not shooting the ball. We were having a hard time shooting and he was shooting the lights out.

Pass first PG? No, that's not the best way to use him anyway. Now as a 2nd scoring option, deep shooter that can run early offense? Well, they don't come much better than he.

Pass-first doesn't preclude a guy from shooting.

Nash, Stockton and Magic all had seasons over 17 ppg and weren't high-volume shooters.

What pass-first means is that any action a player takes offensively is generally designed first with the idea of creating something for another player in mind, e.g. his offense is really the second option in the case of his different checks being unavailable for the pass.

Bibby has done just fine in that role historically and there wouldn't be anything to stop him from getting some screens and some on-ball picks and what-not to get him free to take a few extra shots even when he's being the primary distributor.

tsherkin wrote:Bibby has done just fine in that role historically and there wouldn't be anything to stop him from getting some screens and some on-ball picks and what-not to get him free to take a few extra shots even when he's being the primary distributor.

With Mike Bibby, it's all a matter of attitude. He is very clearly capable of getting high assist numbers because he came into the league with the reputation as an excellent drive-and-dish PG with the bonus of also being a clutch shooter. His first few years with the Grizzlies he was good for 14/8 night in and out.

But nowadays he's not penetrating nearly as much as he should. He's content to just camp around the perimeter and shoot threes, or get off a midrange J after a few dribbles. It's not that he's being selfish; he's getting his points in the rhythm of the offense, and is generally willing to pass it off. But I don't know, maybe playing with such brilliant passing bigs has made him unwilling to create for others like he used to, and simply create for himself or passively swing it to another guy.

Maybe I'm just making too much out of one game. Maybe he snaps out of the funk and realizes there is no more Webber or Divac around to distribute the offense and he needs to take it upon his shoulders to create for himself and others. He needs to see that he no longer needs to score 20+ a game for the Kings to be competitive, and with the ascension of Kevin Martin, John Salmons and Francisco Garcia as legitimate offensive talent along with Ron Artest that it's up to him to make sure the offense runs smoothly and create shots for everyone.

To sum it all up, we need the 14/8 Mike Bibby from the Grizzlies days, not the recent 21/5 Mike. It's still not too late, and I've got my fingers crossed

Cruel_Ruin wrote:
But nowadays he's not penetrating nearly as much as he should. He's content to just camp around the perimeter and shoot threes, or get off a midrange J after a few dribbles. It's not that he's being selfish; he's getting his points in the rhythm of the offense, and is generally willing to pass it off. But I don't know, maybe playing with such brilliant passing bigs has made him unwilling to create for others like he used to, and simply create for himself or passively swing it to another guy.

Well, for about half a decade he's been trained to play off the high post big, so it's unsurprising that he's not as aggressive in attacking the rim the way he used to.

and with the ascension of Kevin Martin, John Salmons and Francisco Garcia as legitimate offensive talent along with Ron Artest that it's up to him to make sure the offense runs smoothly and create shots for everyone.

And Sacramento does have Udrih and Salmons this season, and Artest tossing out over 4 apg, and Miller, there really isn't a lot of call for a heavy usage Mike Bibby, at least not conceptually and so I doubt it'll happen while he's a King.

tsherkin wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

And Sacramento does have Udrih and Salmons this season, and Artest tossing out over 4 apg, and Miller, there really isn't a lot of call for a heavy usage Mike Bibby, at least not conceptually and so I doubt it'll happen while he's a King.

This is true that the Kings have plenty of good passers and slashers. However, when guys like Salmons and Artest attack the basket, they have the mentality of getting their own shot off first. This is often why they have such high TO rates, because they find themselves in double teams and don't have that great court vision off the dribble to find open men. I think Bibby has that kind of court vision, and has shown it in the past. He's an excellent passer off the dribble who, with the right mentality, can create high percentage looks.

Beno is similar to Mike that he's good off the dribble drive, but not good enough to consistently rely upon. He'd be an excellent back up as a poor mans Bibby off the bench.

Ron and Miller get most of their assists finding cutters from the high post, but that doesn't work 100% of the time. That cannot be the only source of a successful offense, IMO. If we want this whole experiment to work in Sacramento, I think Bibby creating offense has to be a part of that.

I agree though, that after playing with such great high post bigs it might take a while for Bibby to regain his aggressiveness. I just hope it happens at all.

its 1 freaking game cmon