Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

[nycballer718]

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Hakeem did it alone. Anyways, sure MJ had a great supporting cast. But MJ delivered 2 three-peats in an era with great players, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Hakeem. He solidified himself as the clutchest player of all time, how many game winners has this guy hit when it mattered the most? When a guy dominates his era the way MJ has, even with a good supporting cast, you can say he has carried his team. Also keep in mind that MJ's bulls were the only team to win without a star bigman... Now you compare that to Wade, who has won one title with Shaq and is on his way to landing a top 3 pick. If Wade had carried a broken down Shaq to the championchip, then can you tell yourself Wade is carrying his team to the lottery?

so in ur opinion what exactly was shaq in the 05-06 season ??? he was obviously declining and a shell of his former self ...u make him out to have a bigger impact then he really did when in reality zo was if not arguably more important to winning the title to the heat ... w/e shaq gave on offense zo gave on defense and by the time playoffs came many heat fans acually wanted zo to start over shaq.

[Flash3]

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Hakeem did it alone. Anyways, sure MJ had a great supporting cast. But MJ delivered 2 three-peats in an era with great players, Stockton, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Hakeem. He solidified himself as the clutchest player of all time, how many game winners has this guy hit when it mattered the most? When a guy dominates his era the way MJ has, even with a good supporting cast, you can say he has carried his team. Also keep in mind that MJ's bulls were the only team to win without a star bigman... Now you compare that to Wade, who has won one title with Shaq and is on his way to landing a top 3 pick. If Wade had carried a broken down Shaq to the championchip, then can you tell yourself Wade is carrying his team to the lottery?

No one does it alone, Hakeem had key role players come up BIG at times of his greatest need; Cassell, Ellie and the other few others you see on ESPN Classic.

Though, he's the closest to doing it alone, you just don't do it alone.

[CB4MiamiHeat]

How did this thread reach 35 pages? Anyways, Wade deserves all of the blame for his team's shortcomings. He receives all of the credit for his ring in '06 so it is fair game. If Heat fans acknowledged that his supporting cast and coaching staff were an integral piece of the team's success, then I would give him slack. However, that is not the case in Real GM.

Wade did carry his team to a championship..that doesnt mean he had NO help, when people say that i take as that he was the CLEAR CUT #1 option.

[travis minor]

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Who are you talking to, the OP or me?

i wouldn't know, didn't read the thread

but i guess yea, you

[Cevap]

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Wade did carry his team to a championship..that doesnt mean he had NO help, when people say that i take as that he was the CLEAR CUT #1 option.

Do you think other players couldn't have lead the heat to the title that year?

Do you still think wade is better then lebron? i know a lot of people hyped wade to be better then a lot of players who have not lost 14 in a row or whatever due to what he did in the finals. Now i believe he is a top 5 player but not on the level of lebron and kobe. i believed that back when they won the title and now when they are losing. before a lot of heat fans would point to the fact that wade won a championship as a "reason" why wade is a better franchise player then lebron. now those same fans have to hear it about this losing streak. it's just the way it is

[nycballer718]

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Do you think other players couldn't have lead the heat to the title that year?

Do you still think wade is better then lebron? i know a lot of people hyped wade to be better then a lot of players who have not lost 14 in a row or whatever due to what he did in the finals. Now i believe he is a top 5 player but not on the level of lebron and kobe. i believed that back when they won the title and now when they are losing. before a lot of heat fans would point to the fact that wade won a championship as a "reason" why wade is a better franchise player then lebron. now those same fans have to hear it about this losing streak. it's just the way it is

it's funny though how u would downgrade wade's past seasons due to this season even though wade is coming back from 2 serious injuries and it's pretty obvious he is more capable of carrying a scrub team in 2006 then he is now..just last year shaq was out 40 games and wades teamates werent much better then what they are now and he was carrying them to a .500 record .....besides why would u assume lebron go off for 35 ppg in 6 games ??? i mean in 2006 mavs were considered a great defensive team ...not at spurs level but great nonetheless ... thinking he can do what wade did is a big question mark..

[Flash3]

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Do you think other players couldn't have lead the heat to the title that year?

Do you still think wade is better then lebron? i know a lot of people hyped wade to be better then a lot of players who have not lost 14 in a row or whatever due to what he did in the finals. Now i believe he is a top 5 player but not on the level of lebron and kobe. i believed that back when they won the title and now when they are losing. before a lot of heat fans would point to the fact that wade won a championship as a "reason" why wade is a better franchise player then lebron. now those same fans have to hear it about this losing streak. it's just the way it is

Kobe or MJ, but even that's a pull.

What Wade did in the post-season that season was HISTORICALLY great. If anyone wanted to do the same, let alone come close, they'd have to duplicate or re-make history. The chances of that being done, are as good as Miami getting the #1 seed in the East this season.

[kingmalaki]

Blame the supporting cast is silly,
2, If T-Mac kept his mouth shut and attacked the basket instead of jacking up ill-advised jumpers in the last 7 minutes in last years' game 7 vs. Utah when Utah was already in penalty at the 7:30 mark, he might have already passed 1st round.

This thread is super silly but I just had to respond to this misconception. For some reason, this myth about T-Mac going passive in the last 7 minutes of that game and causing us to lose is widespread. It is complete and utter BS!!!!

With 5 min to go the game was tied and Utah was in the penalty. T-Mac missed two jumpers in a row (we got an offensive board). Yao came back in with 4:15 to go. For the remainder of the game, T-MAC WASN'T PENETRATING OR SCORING BECAUSE WE WERE RUNNING THE OFFENSE THROUGH YAO AND IT WAS WORKING. Please enlighten me on how 2 superstars can put the ball in the basket at the same time? Please tell me why it is bad to run the offense through your star big when you are converting on more than half of your possessions?

We scored on 5 of our last 7 offensive possessions. Yao scored 7 pts in those final minutes, going 2-3 with 3 FT's (I'm not counting the desperation jumper he shot in the final second when we were down 4). One of his buckets was off an assist from T-Mac. Hayes got a bucket, also assisted by T-Mac. T-Mac got a lay-up. On the two possessions that we did not score on, Yao turned the ball over and missed a jumper. See for yourself:

http://www.nba.com/games/20070505/UTAHO ... lay.html#4

Again, please stop using this silly argument about T-Mac not driving and it costing us the game. We lost because we gave up like 3 offensive boards in the final minute.

Back on topic, Wade's season only shows that you need help and chemistry to win. Yes Wade has his ring and he played out of his mind that postseason run, but he also had tons of help. Shaq was still considered the best C in the league at that time. Freaking Mourning is your backup center. Haslem is a legit PF. Posey, Payton, Walker....all solid vets with playoff experience. Yes Wade turned into Superman but he had lot's of help. This season highlights what can happen when the help goes away.

Every team that has beaten a T-Mac led playoff team was a better team period. That includes last years Rockets as well. They started Chuck Hayes and Alston for God's sake....and went up against a squad with All-Star type players at those same positions (matchups do matter). To top that off their secondary star (Yao) was getting outplayed by Mehmet Okur on both sides of the ball. The Dallas team that beat Houston was also much better. The Rockets were starting freaking Ryan Bowen that series!!!! None of T-Mac's Orlando teams had any business even being in the playoffs, so no need to discuss them.

For the past 3 seasons Kobe has been considered the best player in the game, or at least he is in the discussion. He also hasn't made it out of the first round. Like T-Mac, he hasn't had a lot of help and went up against squads that he wasn't expected to beat. Let's not be hypocritical people....

[WadeKnicks2010]

1) first of all, everyone said T-mac was a great player, but just not good enough to win a championship..

2) Its undeniable that Wade is a great player.. but he also shows that he's good enough to win a championship if he has half decent talent around him.

C'mon, Wade is a great player, no need to pretend he's not because you're a hater or w/e.

[Cevap]

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it's funny though how u would downgrade wade's past seasons due to this season even though wade is coming back from 2 serious injuries and it's pretty obvious he is more capable of carrying a scrub team in 2006 then he is now..just last year shaq was out 40 games and wades teamates werent much better then what they are now and he was carrying them to a .500 record .....besides why would u assume lebron go off for 35 ppg in 6 games ??? i mean in 2006 mavs were considered a great defensive team ...not at spurs level but great nonetheless ... thinking he can do what
wade did is a big question mark..

Lebron's teams have never had more talent then Wade's Heat. His Cavaliers team last year had less talent then wade's championship team and they still whooped detroit (who are at worst on par with dallas in defense). I'm not saying lebron would score 35 ppg, but i believe that he also would've lead the heat to a championship (so would kobe). Wade is still a top 5 player and playing his best to get a win, but he is not some superhuman on the court you guys make him out to be (if he was heat would be a lot better off)

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Kobe or MJ, but even that's a pull.

What Wade did in the post-season that season was HISTORICALLY great. If anyone wanted to do the same, let alone come close, they'd have to duplicate or re-make history. The chances of that being done, are as good as Miami getting the #1 seed in the East this season.

so basically you're saying that wade had the best finals/post season for a guard and that no other perimeter player can do it.


So if he is that damned good to put on the "HISTORICALLY great" performance, why has his team lost 15 in a row? is it because he's not the same player today? or is it that a good team was around him and a great coach back in 2006? shaq was second in mvp voting just the season before, zo was a defensive beast, jwill actually stopped clowning around for a while, riley totally outclassed the next season's coach of the year, refs were clearly biased towards him, it wasn't just wade and four scrubs. yes he was the main player and clearly the mvp but if he is that damned good he wouldn't have lost 15 in a row. MJ didn't and neither have Kobe (two players who, according to you, would have next to zero of a chance to repeat wade's performance)

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Kobe never lost 15 in a row....he has lost 19 of 21 games.

Did that erase his accomplishments and drop his status as a player? No, i would say he was still a top 5 player that year.

[kbitboc]

Miami had a better record last year with Shaq and without Wade than with Wade and without Shaq. Same for the year they won the ring. Miami the year they won would prob not even make the playoff without Shaq. However they would prob still have a top 3 seed in the east without wade and with Shaq. So wade was not the main reason they won the championship that year.

[kbitboc]

Kobe never lost 15 in a row....he has lost 19 of 21 games.

Did that erase his accomplishments and drop his status as a player? No, i would say he was still a top 5 player that year.

It did not erase his accomplishments becuase that's better than losing 15 straight or at least it's a lot easier to forget. Most people will remember tmac losing 19 straight..wade losing 15 and counting straight but when its not consecutive, ppl dont remember it as much. Also, good players will find ways to break long losing streaks.

[Flash3]

so basically you're saying that wade had the best finals/post season for a guard and that no other perimeter player can do it.

So if he is that damned good to put on the "HISTORICALLY great" performance, why has his team lost 15 in a row? is it because he's not the same player today? or is it that a good team was around him and a great coach back in 2006? shaq was second in mvp voting just the season before, zo was a defensive beast, jwill actually stopped clowning around for a while, riley totally outclassed the next season's coach of the year, refs were clearly biased towards him, it wasn't just wade and four scrubs. yes he was the main player and clearly the mvp but if he is that damned good he wouldn't have lost 15 in a row. MJ didn't and neither have Kobe (two players who, according to you, would have next to zero of a chance to repeat wade's performance)

Read what I said again, and you tell me. -- Because you clearly misunderstood my post, and went ranting on about something else.....

Wade put together one of the best post-seasons in league history, ever! -- He joined an elite group that season that very few have ever joined; MJ, Rondo, Magic Kareem and 2 or 3 others.

The only players in NBA history to average more PPG in a winning Finals effort are: Shaq and MJ. THAT'S IT--Now sit on that for a moment.

I guess only 3 players in NBA history averaging more ppg en route to Finals MVP doesn't rate very well anymore. I guess becoming only the 5th player in history to drop 35 points 4 games in a row (something MJ only did once himself, 93) doesn't rate.

So why should we pretend like what Wade was able to put together and help lead his team to a title is something that can easily be duplicated, when very few have been able to do what Wade did that post-season?

(two players who, according to you, would have next to zero of a chance to repeat wade's performance)

Once again, READ what I said AGAIN. Because, I clearly did not say anything close to them not having a chance, but instead being possibly the only two players over the last decade or so of actually pulling it off.

Kobe or MJ, but even that's a pull.

Considering only a handful of players in NBA history have had scoring success in the playoffs comparable to what Wade did; and only a handful of players in the league play help defense the way he did in the playoffs, the suggestion that he was so easily replaced is absolutely ludicrous.

[kingmalaki]

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Wade put together one of the best post-seasons in league history, ever! -- He joined an elite group that season that very few have ever joined; MJ, Rondo, Magic Kareem and 2 or 3 others.

Did he really now? I think he had one of the best scoring Finals ever but there are other aspects to the game. I think plenty of other players have had more impact in postseason runs. Now if you are only talking points then maybe you are right

[Cevap]

Flash3, other players might not have put up 35 ppg in a 4 game span to win the championship but you're delusional if you don't think other players wouldn't have won the championship with that team. but since you give wade so much credit for doing it, why has his team lost 15 in a row? if he is that good that no one except mj and kobe could do what he did, why is his team last in the conference?

[CB4MiamiHeat]

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It did not erase his accomplishments becuase that's better than losing 15 straight or at least it's a lot easier to forget. Most people will remember tmac losing 19 straight..wade losing 15 and counting straight but when its not consecutive, ppl dont remember it as much. Also, good players will find ways to break long losing streaks.

most people will remember streaks...it doesnt take away from the fact that he lost 19 of 21 Games!

Does that take away from him as a player? No,

He had like four 30 pt games during that span that still resulted in losses.
He had three 10 + assists game, all losses.
The sidekick, Lamar Odom didnt play in most of those games.


Same with Dwade...

Hes had two 40+ games and two 30+ games, all losses.
Has had about three 10+ assists games, all loses.
The sidekick, Shaquille Oneal didnt play on most of those games.

Those who say that Wade is not a "superstar" or "leader" because of this streak are the same idiots that said the same about Kobe.

[WadeKnicks2010]

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Wade put together one of the best post-seasons in league history, ever! -- He joined an elite group that season that very few have ever joined; MJ, Rondo, Magic Kareem and 2 or 3 others.

Did he really now? I think he had one of the best scoring Finals ever but there are other aspects to the game. I think plenty of other players have had more impact in postseason runs. Now if you are only talking points then maybe you are right

[Flash3]

Flash3, other players might not have put up 35 ppg in a 4 game span to win the championship but you're delusional if you don't think other players wouldn't have won the championship with that team. but since you give wade so much credit for doing it, why has his team lost 15 in a row? if he is that good that no one except mj and kobe could do what he did, why is his team last in the conference?

You really aren't grasping the concept here, are you? -- You go from one thing to another, and then to another in a span of 2-3 posts.....

This issue has been addressed multiple times already in this super long thread. -- Go back some in this thread, and you'll clearly have your answer; I've touched on this very subject more than once on occasion, and I don't feel like doing it again.

[WadeKnicks2010]

And lets please not judge Wade by ONE injury plagued year.. In the previous 4 seasons, with an ok supporting cast and with relative health, he easily commanded one of the top 4 teams in the east every single season.

This one season, he's not only playing with an atrocious supporting cast, but he's also hurt..

When he was healthy he was and will be a great player.. What he did in the Finals of 2006 was undeniable.. He carried that team through unbelievable adversity.. His team were the underdogs, they had matchup problems against the mavericks, the Mavs had the better regular season record and beat two contenders (phx, sas) on the way to the finals, and were more talented on paper.. Wade just willed his team to victory, just watch games 3 and 5.. Tell me those games weren't impressive.. Tell me that anything less than a top 2 NBA player could have done what he did there.. No defense was enough to slow him down that series, he was just too good.. Same with the Pistons series against both Wallaces...