What's so great about Big Men who can shoot?

pr0wler · Post #1 » by **pr0wler** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:34 am

It's great that Sabonis back in the day could step back and drain that three point shot to keep Shaq honest defensively. It's nice to have a guy like Kurt Thomas who can hit the open 15 footer. Pau Gasol can knock down the 20 foot jumper if needed. Same with Chris Bosh.

But what I don't get is the fascination with some big men trying to be the next Dirk Nowitizki. Dirk Nowitzki is a one of a kind player. He's 7 feet, but is a better shooter than probably 90% of the NBA. His great size allows him to shoot over defenders. Other than that, he's an average player. Reasonable mobility for a big man, okay post game and decent dribbling skills for a big man.

The point is that unless a big man can shoot at a very high level, why have them take all their shots from the outside? Andrea Bargnani is a great shooter for a big man, but how does he compare to the average NBA player in that regard? He's, well...average. If he was playing the post more and using his great size and athleticism then he'd be a much more effective player. And hey, if you leave him open he can knock down that shot. But IMO, that shouldn't be his first option at all.

Imagine if Dwight Howard started shooting a lot of 15-20 jumpers, and was making a reasonable amount of them. Hey, good for you Dwight. It's good that you have versatility in your game. But really, why should he be taking outside shots when there are a million other guys that can do the same thing, when he could be in the paint where he's most effective? I'm not comparing Dwight Howard's athleticism to Bargnani but I'm trying to make a point that players need to do what they are most effective at.

jourdy · Post #2 » by **jourdy** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:50 am

Obviously, people love traditional big men more. What's great about good shooting big men is that they create a huge mismatch against the opposing team.

If Dwight Howard starts knocking down jump shots, then he's improved and there's no stopping him. Imagine if he gains a jumper - dude will be flat out unstoppable. Stretch the defense, and he will have a counter when the opposing teams clog the lane. At times, I've seen him being ignored on the Magic offense, and that's because at times he is too deep in the post that it's hard to make an entry pass. There are also times when the lane is too clogged and he ends up getting stripped by guards. If he has a jumper to keep the defense honest, he would possibly be more dominant than Shaq.

I see your point saying that big men should stay in the paint. After all, that's where the highest % shots are. Having a jump shot though, is an improvement. It's one of the most fundamental things in basketball, yet it's also underrated.

That's just my opinion though, and I could be wrong.

scottyo50 · Post #3 » by **scottyo50** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:50 am

because, as you said, it keeps the defence honest. making it a main part of your offensive set isnt a great idea, but having it htere can be useful for a big man, and for his team

MagicFan32 · Post #4 » by **MagicFan32** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:15 am

I want my bigs in the paint. What happens too often is when a guy gets good at shooting jumpers he falls in love with it. Look at Sheed and Zach Randolph as examples. Sheed is great in the post but 70 percent of the time he'd rather take 3's or fallaways from 18 feet.

hiroSpeed · Post #5 » by **hiroSpeed** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:17 am

That is very true though, your comparison of dirk with bargs. Dirk is definitely an elite shooter vs the league. Bargs is just a good shooter for his size, really needs to learn on using his speed a bit more. His foot work have yet to improve from last season which annoys me a lot.
anyways, Big man that can shoot do keep the defense honest and allows more options to penetrate.

Platapie · Post #6 » by **Platapie** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:33 am

It's a great tool but it is just that, a tool. I tend to think that most elite teams have a player they want besides their big taking the big shots anyway so it's not as important a tool to some as it is to others, but in terms of creating your own shot, being able to shoot is an asset for a big.

Teddy KGB · Post #7 » by **Teddy KGB** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:44 am

I think that you hit the nail on the head the way you said that Dirk is an exceptional shooter league-wide, not just for big men. For Dirk it's definitely OK to be a jumpshooting big because he's so darned good at it. But it just pains me to watch guys like Bargnani just chuck up shot after shot. He's good for a big man, but again, as you said he is just an average shooter considering the whole NBA.

Overall, I think that big men should NOT model their games after Nowitzki. He is truly a one of a kind player, and jumpshooting is simply big men not using their size advantage which is just dumb. It's a different matter that you can have a jumper in your repertoire a la Garnett but unless you are an exceptional shooter league-wide you just should not be chucking up 3s.

Somebody really needs to get Bargs to stop chucking 3s.

Number34 · Post #8 » by **Number34** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:59 am

Nothing wrong with big men that can shoot (it stretches the d as said before) , but if they start to rely on that aspect of their their game rather then do the work of the conventional big man it becomes a bad thing.

pr0wler · Post #9 » by **pr0wler** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:05 pm

ss_maverick wrote:It's a different matter that you can have a jumper in your repertoire a la Garnett but unless you are an exceptional shooter league-wide you just should not be chucking up 3s.

Somebody really needs to get Bargs to stop chucking 3s.

That's exactly my point. Shooting is a great tool to have for ANY player but should be used appropriately. If you leave Garnett open from 15-20 feet, he'll shoot and he'll make 'em. But of course his first option is to bang down low and get a more high percentage shot. Dirk is the only big man in the league that can and should use mid/long range shooting as his primary scoring option because he's that good.

And as another poster said players start to fall in love with those outside shots too. Rasheed Wallace used to be a great post presence and while he still does on occasion, now you see him launching outside shots fairly regularly. He's a great post up player but an average (at best) shooter at the NBA level. Same with Zach Randolph and Bargnani. These guys are good shooters by big man standards but compared to the other guards/forwards in the league they are mediocore.

Kid Vicious · Post #10 » by **Kid Vicious** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:19 pm

If he can shoot AND rebound, he is invaluable.

rutheredfox · Post #11 » by **rutheredfox** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:40 pm

well the main thing about a big who can shoot is that it stretches out the defense. if you have a center who can shoot like yao or bosh. it frees up the paint, so guards can drive in the lane more by bringing out the other center who's guarding him. this is exactly why we play harrington at center often times and same reason why biedrins keeps getting less minutes. cause the warriors offense revolves around shooting and driving. post plays are never apparent at warriors games. that being said, if warriors had bosh or dirk.....

CaptainFanchini · Post #12 » by **CaptainFanchini** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:51 pm

In Europe the need of good shooting/offense from bigs started mainly with the develop of the zone defense.

The more you have good shooting players, the more you have chances to beat the zone.

Think about a zone played against a team like

PG Andre Miller
SG Monta Ellis
SF Darius Miles
PF Al Jefferson
C Howard

They wouldn't score AT ALL.

Nopw try to play zone with a team like

PG Nash
SG Anthony Parker
SF Kapono
PF Nowitzki
C Bargnani

Self-suicide ...

IMHO if a big can shot well from outside it's a great toll and can improve your offence and put big pressure and lot of problems on the opposite defense.

The more a player is complete and versatile, the more I like him.

No need to say that I don't want to see a center shooting 2-12 from 3 ... but if he can make 3-5, 2-4, 3-7 or so it's perfect.

Fairview4Life · Post #13 » by **Fairview4Life** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:51 pm

Because when they make their shats, they make a big difference. Bargnani has led the league in on court +/- over the past few weeks of playing like he did last year, for example.

fugop · Post #14 » by **fugop** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:11 pm

Jamison's role in Washington is a pretty good example of the virtues of a shooting "big." He pulls the PF out of the paint to open lanes for slashers like Caron and Antonio Daniels. Even though he can't pass and is shooting a poor percentage, Jamison's presence on the court has a strong positive impact on our offensive efficiency.

IanJames · Post #15 » by **IanJames** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:34 pm

I don't know if Dirk's 29% 3pt percentage does make him better than 90% of the league...

In fact Bargnani is shooting MUCH better from 3 than him this season @ 40%

BullSoxChicago'sFinest · Post #16 » by **BullSoxChicago'sFinest** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:47 pm

You listen to Barkley too much

theTHIEF · Post #17 » by **theTHIEF** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:48 pm

i prefer the classic big man...shooting for the the 2-4 spots...

Dirk_diggler_41 · Post #18 » by **Dirk_diggler_41** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:08 pm

IanJames wrote:I don't know if Dirk's 29% 3pt percentage does make him better than 90% of the league...

In fact Bargnani is shooting MUCH better from 3 than him this season @ 40%

Come on! This is an off-year for Dirk. It is his worst % since his rookie season. The past three years he shot over 40%!
Anyhow, Dirk is still shooting over 50% from mid range--one of the highest percentages in the NBA.
Unlike Bargs, Dirk is still a good--though not great--rebounder, gets to the line, and is one of the best passing bigs in the game (four assists per game).

If Dirk never shot another three pointer he'd still be a great player.

TooNice00 · Post #19 » by **TooNice00** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:11 pm

the most dominant big men play in the paint. settling for jumpers is stupid for any player. you get less foul calls making a bad shooting night kill you and you don't give your team as many chances for offensive rebounds. for some reason people like to hate on big men you play in the post, like dwight. or perimeter players like lebron. i say do what is most effective and efficient for you and the team.

Ramen Monster · Post #20 » by **Ramen Monster** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:38 pm

pr0wler wrote:It's great that Sabonis back in the day could step back and drain that three point shot to keep Shaq honest defensively. It's nice to have a guy like Kurt Thomas who can hit the open 15 footer. Pau Gasol can knock down the 20 foot jumper if needed. Same with Chris Bosh.

But what I don't get is the fascination with some big men trying to be the next Dirk Nowitizki. Dirk Nowitzki is a one of a kind player. He's 7 feet, but is a better shooter than probably 90% of the NBA. His great size allows him to shoot over defenders. Other than that, he's an average player. Reasonable mobility for a big man, okay post game and decent dribbling skills for a big man.

The point is that unless a big man can shoot at a very high level, why have them take all their shots from the outside? Andrea Bargnani is a great shooter for a big man, but how does he compare to the average NBA player in that regard? He's, well...average. If he was playing the post more and using his great size and athleticism then he'd be a much more effective player. And hey, if you leave him open he can knock down that shot. But IMO, that shouldn't be his first option at all.

Imagine if Dwight Howard started shooting a lot of 15-20 jumpers, and was making a reasonable amount of them. Hey, good for you Dwight. It's good that you have versatility in your game. But really, why should he be taking outside shots when there are a million other guys that can do the same thing, when he could be in the paint where he's most effective? I'm not comparing Dwight Howard's athleticism to Bargnani but I'm trying to make a point that players need to do what they are most effective at.

You are right, having a jumpshot might make bargnani a remarkable bigman, but not a remarkable shooter.

name that reference, haha