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I don

You're underrating Nash.

Marion sucks and is a team cancer. Not even close to being mvp. Marion has really helped miami win a lot.

It doesn't change my perspective at all, because Steve Nash never should have won either of those MVP's IMO.

In all reality, those two awards should have gone to....

2004-2005 Shaq
2005-2006 Kobe

Steve Nash has never even been a top 5 player in this league, let alone a "Most Valuable Player" by my criteria. His atrocious defense vastly reduces his overall value, IMO.

His defense was outdone by his team generated offense. It is catching up to him now with age, so degrading his achievements through an arguement that is changed a lot with the circumstances is not a very solid point. Marion in Miami has underperformed compared to his level in Phoenix. Their synergy was so big that such is very much underrated. Marion made up a lot for Nash's defensive osteoporosis, and at the same time, he finished Nash's job. Even without Marion, Nash is putting up 15 assists games today.

I would say he deserves it. He was flat out the most explosive catalyst for the former Western powerhouse. You can't jump into dimishing his achievements just because his age and his team are wanning.

Charles Barkley is rolling over in his grave

Scrub Sura wrote:Charles Barkley is rolling over in his grave

Too many enchiladas I reckon.

Let me make myself a little more clear:

I'm not saying this makes Nash undeserving of his MVP's or great play, I'm just questioning the stance of what extent Nash was the system. The whole "Nash is the system" and pretty much ignoring the players that fit so well in such a system, such as a fast finisher/garbage man like Marion.

Nash is without question the Suns MVP, every year, but does his supporting cast in such a system get a little bit more credit now.

Duiz wrote:I would say he deserves it. He was flat out the most explosive catalyst for the former Western powerhouse. You can't jump into dimishing his achievements just because his age and his team are wanning.

Perhaps one, but certaintly not two.

But what people forget is that wasn't Nash playing the exact same way in Dallas as he has in Phoenix? Perhaps D'Antoni's system is more geared towards him and thus, his stats have increased but nothing has been drastically different from his days in Dallas.

Even if Nash is in decline, he has always been a one-way player and enough with the age excuses.

Even in his prime, Nash still couldn't stop Stevie Wonder from torching his pink polo shirt ass

You mean to tell me that players feed off of each other and that you can't look at any one player in a vacuum? You mean to tell me that something so seemingly simple as Individual PER isn't as "individual" as we all thought it was?

This is a team sport?

Goddamn!

I forgot who said this but they brought up a great point on the radio about Shaq and Nash.

For Nash to maximize his ability, he needs the paint clear. Which is obviously a problem when you have a 300 pound center clogging up the lane. I don't think PHX's downfall is because of what Marion brought to the team but what Shaq brings.

[quote="Scrub Sura"][/quote]

Steve was already known as an explosive PG even when he played with the Mavs. You also seem to dismiss the 55+ win seasons he had with the "Big Three", where Dirk was the centerpiece. Even in Dallas he was a good PG, easily top ten in the league. It was when he moved to Phoenix that he became HOF material.

I agree with the OP's eventual admission that Steve is the integral player to a good team. He isn't the system, but without him the system doesn't run (can you imagine Barbosa left with the reins running it at all?)

And the "one-way" argument applies to plenty of PG's besides Nash. Nash is near tops in all-time 3-point % and free-throw %. Certainly his game is oriented one way. Kidd serves as a parallel in his remarkable defense but horrendous offensive efficiency. Watching Kidd shoot 3's is my equivalent to Nash's man-to-man defense. In other words, Stevie Wonder has a good chance of beating Kidd in a game of H-O-R-S-E. Yet, I wouldn't say that diminishes Kidd's position as a great PG despite him being offensively challenged.

tnayrbrocks wrote:I forgot who said this but they brought up a great point on the radio about Shaq and Nash.

For Nash to maximize his ability, he needs the paint clear. Which is obviously a problem when you have a 300 pound center clogging up the lane. I don't think PHX's downfall is because of what Marion brought to the team but what Shaq brings.

Well I mean...the patented Nash half court set is him not picking up the dribble when he goes under the hoop. You can't exactly probe around the key when you can't see through it.

The NBA, where learning on the fly happens.

I think theoilslick brought up a good point. When Nash goes to the bench and Barbosa becomes the point guard the offense becomes a bit stagnant. Then the franchise figured out that any fast point guard could run this bunch and signed Marcus Banks, we all know that turned out to be a bust. I do think its a little bit of both because we all know Nash means so much to this team, more then anyone would admit. However if they continue to struggle I can see the adjustment card being played until next year. Either way I didnt think Nash deserved the MVP's so the Marion trade does not change my outlook on them.

Jordan didn't win anything without Pippen. Does that mean that Jordan's label as the GOAT should be taken away from him? With your logic the answer would be yes.

Scrub Sura wrote:Charles Barkley is rolling over in his grave

You do understand that the person needs to be dead for that expression to work, right?

It sure doesn't take away anything from Nash's MVPs but it sure does put up the limitations of every great player. Nash is a phenomenal player, one of the best passers I have ever seen and once in a generation kind but when the pieces around him don't operate properly, there isn't much he can do to make things better. This is the kind of problem every superstar player has faced one time or the other in their careers.

Marion is a straight out hustle guy, stays durable, is an excellent finisher and an all NBA team defense kind of a player. In short he did mask a lot of Phoenix's shortcomings after they made trades just in view of keeping themselves under the luxury tax and now its ironic that he has to go out when they finally look committed to winning at whatever cost.

Marion ran with Nash on the fast break, made great cuts and one of the best off ball players in recent times. He sure was made to look good by Nash but considering him a 3rd string player behind Nash and Amare is a cardinal sin which Phoenix are going to realize now. Phoenix didn't miss a beat when they had literally no front court with both Kurt Thomas and Amare getting injured at the start of the playoffs but they do look terribly out of sorts without Marion. So I'd just have to say that Marion was as improtant to Phoenix as Amare was but certainly not an MVP candidate over Nash like he thinks.

Egg Nog wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



You do understand that the person needs to be dead for that expression to work, right?

Lol. The internet: Where intentional irony doesn't happen.