Why does it seem all coaches are equally frustrating as this

[may191988]

I just cant understand why it seems every single coach in the NBA fails to see what us fans see as so obvious. I think the single biggest issue is how so many coaches rely so, SO much on their veterans. Even when there are more energetic/skilled young players to develop. Why do you guys think these NBA coaches put so little importance in developing young players?? I understand that there are always assistant coaches and practice time to groom these players but surely everyone must agree that actual game time is the best tool to improve.

I can understand the advantages of veteran, experienced players surely but im not really talking about the star vets or the actually good, talented players. What really bothers me the most is that nearly every team seems to have the one completely unskilled player who just happens to hustle and try hard on D and he will always get ten times the play time than a top 10 overall pick. I know coaches have to be concerned with their own job security constantly and so they will rely on players that they feel more comfortable with, but why cant they just rely on the players who produce the most regardless of age?? wouldnt that secure their job more??

i just have to believe that for some reason all these coaches are just too proud and pompous to play young guys. i think the only coach who actually does a decent job of developing all his players and giving them play time is phil jackson but even he doesnt do it enough IMO.

I also cant understand why GM's allow coaches to do this. I mean what is the point of a GM going out there and doing all this research and scouting and when they finally get a young player who could end being a star he ends up out of the league in 4 years cause the coach wont play him?? I mean if i were a GM id try to make sure i get someone who will work with me and use all the weapons im providing for him otherwise i too will be fired soon. doesnt that make sense??

oh well im sure all u guys can relate cause all coaches seem to do this. what do u guys think??

[Duiz]

I prefer to give Okur time on the court rather than Mohammed Sene.

I prefer to give time to Jason Maxiell rather than Adam Morrison.

[may191988]

okur?? sene?? all of these guys dont even play in the same team how r they competing for play time?? also i would hardly consider okur and maxiell as the types of players im talkin about.

look at ur team for example how does harpring get so much run even in the 4th quarter. u gotta admit the guy has close to zero basketball skill.

[Duiz]

OK... you want serious stuff?

Take Deron's first year. #3 pick of the draft, and stayed on the bench and played spare backup minutes for half the year. It wasn't until the time after the All-Star he actually played more decent minutes.

Now Deron is putting perennial All-Star numbers, extremely efficient shooter (over .500 FG%), and he leads the charge of running the offense of the highest efficiency with 111.1 points per 100 posessions and he is part of 43% of the buckets made by the Utah Jazz.

Deron came as a great shooter, physical defender and penetrator, and leader of a team that was very close to the championship. Deron hit a half court buzzer beater on his first game with the Utah Jazz against the Mavericks. He had the Alpha-Dog complex and attitude within him, cause he was seriously that good. But Sloan was afraid that he wasn't going to lead how he wanted him to. Jerry Sloan tested him as an SG for some time, but that wasn't working well.

So Sloan's goal was to get his mentality in the right place, and instill discipline so that he runs the offense, specially when things begin stiffling. Point made, and even from last year, Deron has made a great leap on his discipline to run the offense.

Probably doesn't apply every single time, but Jerry Sloan decided to do this to discipline his player to become a player, or a man of good.

Many Jazz fans will disagree with me, and have the equal or more frustration that you have currently. But believe me, when a HoF coach calls you the smartest player to ever work with, and to the fact that he allows Deron to call plays, something that his former HoF Point Guard, John Stockton didn't get to do, you know that the young one has learned his lesson.

Deron is only 23, 21 when he came into the league.

[Mahoney_jr]

Young players don't understand the game. You can't endow them with playing time, just because they were drafted high. They need to earn their playing time through practice, practice, practice. I don't think the last season in Boston made Gerald Green a better basketball player, for example.

[may191988]

^^
well obviously i wouldnt condone just giving playing time to someone just cause they were a high pick. look at araujo for example he shouldve been cut immediately. but ok look for example at tyrus thomas in chicago or brandan wright in GSW isnt it just maddening that these guys seem to always come in and have a positive impact yet they arent rewarded with playing time?? i think u guys r misinterpreting the type of players im talkin about...

[may191988]

OK... you want serious stuff?

Take Deron's first year. #3 pick of the draft, and stayed on the bench and played spare backup minutes for half the year. It wasn't until the time after the All-Star he actually played more decent minutes.

Now Deron is putting perennial All-Star numbers, extremely efficient shooter (over .500 FG%), and he leads the charge of running the offense of the highest efficiency with 111.1 points per 100 posessions and he is part of 43% of the buckets made by the Utah Jazz.

Deron came as a great shooter, physical defender and penetrator, and leader of a team that was very close to the championship. Deron hit a half court buzzer beater on his first game with the Utah Jazz against the Mavericks. He had the Alpha-Dog complex and attitude within him, cause he was seriously that good. But Sloan was afraid that he wasn't going to lead how he wanted him to. Jerry Sloan tested him as an SG for some time, but that wasn't working well.

So Sloan's goal was to get his mentality in the right place, and instill discipline so that he runs the offense, specially when things begin stiffling. Point made, and even from last year, Deron has made a great leap on his discipline to run the offense.

Probably doesn't apply every single time, but Jerry Sloan decided to do this to discipline his player to become a player, or a man of good.

Many Jazz fans will disagree with me, and have the equal or more frustration that you have currently. But believe me, when a HoF coach calls you the smartest player to ever work with, and to the fact that he allows Deron to call plays, something that his former HoF Point Guard, John Stockton didn't get to do, you know that the young one has learned his lesson.

Deron is only 23, 21 when he came into the league.

i would hardly count this as a good example cause deron only had to sit half a season like u said. plenty of other talented players rotting away for their full rookie contract. again idk if u guys r not understanding where im comin from here... =/

[Duiz]

Brandan Wright doesn't match the type of player they want in the system.

Look at Patrick O'Bryant who has been in the doghouse for a long time.

Tyrus Thomas is terrible defensively too.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI.HTM

Look at his opponent production and his production. He is almost worthless and just a role player. Cool dunks don't teach fundamentals, and I think the point that my Boston colleague was making about Gerald Green similarly applies to this case.

He is also known to have some serious attitude problems. Check out the following article about his participation for the All-Star game. Don't expect Stu Jackson to giving him any more time than Boylan will.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2756552

[Mahoney_jr]

^^
well obviously i wouldnt condone just giving playing time to someone just cause they were a high pick. look at araujo for example he shouldve been cut immediately. but ok look for example at tyrus thomas in chicago or brandan wright in GSW isnt it just maddening that these guys seem to always come in and have a positive impact yet they arent rewarded with playing time?? i think u guys r misinterpreting the type of players im talkin about...

Great examples, which proves my point. The ceiling for Wright and Thomas is so high, that it would be a shame to be content with their game at the moment. Do not let them play like they want, because they do not know [how to play] winning basketball. Break their game down and build it up correctly. That takes time.

Young players aren't good NBA players.

I'm so happy that Boston is a contending team again, because it's that much easier to make winning basketball players out of rookies. Believe me, not playing time is the key to build a star. It's the environment.

[Duiz]

LeBron James? Chris Paul?

It is not necessary to be benched during your first two years to become best. But I do agree that generally your theory is right mahoney.

[tkb]

Tyrus Thomas is terrible defensively too.

He was nr 1 in the league in defensive rating as a rookie had he qualified, and the Bulls are 3.2 points per 100 possessions better on defense with him in the lineup this season, so I wouldn't call him terrible defensively.

[Duiz]

-= original quote snipped =-



He was nr 1 in the league in defensive rating as a rookie had he qualified, and the Bulls are 3.2 points per 100 possessions better on defense with him in the lineup this season, so I wouldn't call him terrible defensively.

Better help defender perhaps. I don't like consider his presence be better defensively. He had Wallace on the side, and Noah isn't any shabby.

To me a better parameter to determine the value defensively other than the opponents PER is fouling. He average 2.2 fouls a game, which in my view it is a conversion of poor defense. If he was to play full on 36 or 40 minutes, he would be compromised in foul trouble. Also he turns the ball over like he is a point guard. And to be a person that prides in dunking, he has a terrible FG% with .408.

Bad offense, and long rebounds can spark the transition game of the other team too.

Once again, I don't think that we can solely say that it is only because of his presence that the Bulls improve their defense. Their rotation is what I would attribute it to.

[Schad]

What he is referring to is what should be known as The Michael Curry Effect. Curry was the Jason Collins of 6'5" forwards: he couldn't score, couldn't rebound, and his defense by age 33 was nowhere near what it had been, and certainly not good enough to compensate for his total lack of ability on the offensive end.

Despite these harsh realities, Curry started 75 games in '02/'03 under Rick Carlisle, which kept a rookie by the name of Tayshaun Prince who was vastly superior in every facet save for "veteran grit" nailed to the bench (likewise, an ancient and declining Cliff Robinson starts over a young 'un in Memo Okur and somehow racks up the second-most minutes on the team). Next year, with Curry out and Larry Brown in, Prince gets the starting job from the outset and shines.

Next year, Curry follows Carlisle protege Kevin O'Neill to Toronto, and O'Neill starts him at SF over a much better scorer and defender in Morris Peterson in an attempt to 'set the tone' in games, with 'the tone' in this case meaning two quick fouls and an early deficit. Late in the season, he inexplicably decides to start him alongside Chris Bosh and Donyell Marshall...but have Curry guard opposing centers. This bit of tactical genius aids Jermaine O'Neal to 20/18 and Ilgauskas to score 30 in consecutive games, and leads O'Neill to be christened "The Bald Idiot".

For whatever reason, many coaches end up with their own Michael Curry: the aforementioned Collins and Lawrence Frank, Sam Vincent and his inexplicable love affair with Jeff McInnis, Mike Brown and Eric Snow.

Usually, it's a guy the coach feels 'plays the right way' and is thus his extension on the court; it's a comfort thing, because the broken-down vet can be counted on to do what the coach wants, even if their skills have deteriorated to the point where they are a negative on both ends of the court.

Also, it tends to be really, really bad coaches who do this; good coaches realize that there's better performance (and thus better job security) to be found in good players, even if they don't look half as gritty while being abused on defense.

[Mahoney_jr]

Good posting, Schadenfreude. I agree, there are certain players like Michael Curry or Brian Scalabrine. But do you think that experience harmed the growth of Tayshaun Prince?

As a Boston Fan I know many fans who criticized Doc for "not recognizing" the talent of Ryan Gomes or Leon Powe early on and therefore giving Scal minutes over those rookies. It was January/February when they got consistent minutes and started producing.

Would those players be better by now, if they got minutes right from the start?

I don't think so.

edit: Of course there are bad coaches in the NBA or franchises with a bad environment where coaches can't play the guys he wants. But Boston isn't one of them and I think they did many things right by developing their young players (even by not playing them from early on :) )

PS: Chris Paul, LeBron James are once in a decade players and are exceptions of the rule.

[Schad]

Good posting, Schadenfreude. I agree, there are certain players like Michael Curry or Brian Scalabrine. But do you think that experience harmed the growth of Tayshaun Prince?

As a Boston Fan I know many fans who criticized Doc for "not recognizing" the talent of Ryan Gomes or Leon Powe early on and therefore giving Scal minutes over those rookies. It was January/February when they got consistent minutes and started producing.

Would those players be better by now, if they got minutes right from the start?

I don't think so.

PS: Chris Paul, LeBron James are once in a decade players and are exceptions of the rule.

I don't believe that it harmed their growth...rather, it harmed the team in the short-term, because the kids were simply better from day one.

Now, there is a difference when you're talking about kids with over-sized egos, but not every youngster has that problem.

[Mahoney_jr]

If a team would be clearly better by playing the rookie over the "Michael Curry of your team", the coach would do it (resp. a good and save coach would do it).

But I think that's not the case in most of the occurences. It's a rather personal relationship between a certain rookie / young player and the fans. The fans think about long term and the glory days right behind the next corner if the rookie gets playing time. And I refuse to accept that playing time means growth. It's a part of growth, but giving up playing time "for free" will do more bad than good.

[celticfan42487]

lifestyle and team concepts can be learned. But not without reflection on what you lack.

90% of young players need to watch the game, then play a little, then watch there tape and learn about their team, the speed of the NBA, how defenses change and mature.

"Holding" a better player back is probuly the best way to get that player to mentally achieve his pinnicale. Not every player needs this but most these days do.

I also think fans take for granted the small things like not turning the ball over, setting picks without getting fouls, and being able to run a system. Young players just make too many mistakes and turn the basketball over or make it harder for their teamates to execute offensively.

[HawaiianJazzFan]

This for DUIZ.... I couldn't disagree more with the paragraph you wrote..... and apparently Sloan doesn't agree either

"I probably hindered him as much as anything in his first year." Jerry Sloan on Deron's rookie year.

Not to mention Fisher over Brewer at the 2 spot, Collins over Fesenko and pretty much anytime Collins plays, Donyell Marshall over AK, Harp over AK, Ruffin over anyone... Sloan is just as bad if not worse than every other coach.

[Blame Rasho]

Well if you are good enough you will earn time over vets... it is that simple.

[sonny]

Well if you are good enough you will earn time over vets... it is that simple.

My counterpoint

Chicago Bulls of the last two years

And Tyrus is good defensively.