Vince Carter = Most Underrated All-Star

[Mad Balla 15]

There's no doubt in my mind that Vince Carter has to be the most underrated all-star in this league. You go to the player comparison board these days and people are saying players like Joe Johnson are better or Josh Howard is better when really their not and don't impact the game the way Vince does. Also ever since Magic Johnson started blabbering his mouth about how Vince is a role player in this league now it seems a lot of people have listened to him because you know, TNT people are ALWAYS right!

Well how does this sound for a role player? "The 10-year veteran was one of only three NBA players (Kobe Bryant, LeBron James) to average more than 20 points, six rebounds and five assists throughout the season." I must say, a role player to be the in the company of Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, that's one good role player! Ever since the All-Star break Carter has averaged 24/6/5 and on one ankle. I don't know if anyone read the article about when Vince had ankle surgery but there was bone spurs and other debris in his ankle which was clearly having an effect on his mobility yet he still was able to be one of only 3 players in this league to post 21/6/5 on the year. Also he posted 26/7/6 down the stretch trying to pull his team into the playoffs but nobody other than Devin Harris was really helping him so they fell short.

Not some of you are probably going to be like yeah yeah he can put up stats but he doesn't have an effect on the game, their "empty stats." Well then I wonder why the Nets were 0-6 without Vince this year and haven't won a game without Vince since he's come to NJ.

Also some of you are still obviously going by the perception that "he doesn't try hard at all times" from that one interview which was heavily edited and made it sound like Vince said he didn't try hard when really he didn't say that. Instead he said that he didn't work as hard as he could have in the offseason which is completely different than not trying during the season. Anyways that's a different issue but even after being eliminated from the post-season chase or when they knew they were pretty much eliminated Vince didn't want to shut it down even though he knew his ankle could've used the rest.

[Hunter]

I don't think people ever question his talent. People question his heart. And it hasn't helped that his teams have not been particularly successful the last few years.

There are people on the Pistons board who wouldn't trade Rip for Vince, which I guess speaks to your point. I for one would make that trade in a heartbeat, but there definitely is a lot of hate for the guy right now.

[jeff1624]

I don't think people ever question his talent. People question his heart. And it hasn't helped that his teams have not been particularly successful the last few years.

There are people on the Pistons board who wouldn't trade Rip for Vince, which I guess speaks to your point. I for one would make that trade in a heartbeat, but there definitely is a lot of hate for the guy right now.

Then you could say the same about T-Mac, Pierce and Carmelo.

[Sedale Threatt]

Vince is on vacation right now. Who cares.

[tsherkin]

As Hunter noted, it's not a question of talent.

Vince isn't underrated by most; he's rated exactly where he should be.

He's an inconsistent All-Star caliber player who doesn't play up to his potential because he isn't aggressive enough and evidences weird and poor shot selection. He doesn't take advantage of his size enough in the post, doesn't slash aggressively enough, takes too many 3s, fades on his jumpers too often and doesn't play the kind of defense he could if he was focused more often.

These are all truths about Vince Carter. You take that away, he's still an All-Star, just not a superstar like a Kobe or a Lebron, etc. Joe Johnson and Josh Howard ARE better than Vince.

Not in talent or diversity of skill (well, JJ maybe because he's a better defender and passer) or in athleticism but because they are capable of exerting a comparable or superior impact on a game by nature of their respective styles of play.

Joe Johnson spent the fourth quarter of Game 4 abusing Boston by taking it directly to the rim and, as a consequence scored 20 points in the quarter, scoring 9 points in the last 3:30 or so (though 2 came on FTAs when Garnett fouled him to get back possession).

I mean, it's all about impact and Vince's level of impact is entirely inconsistent, his mentality not there... he's a really good second star. REALLY good. He's got underrated passing abilities and he's a good rebounder for a guard (quite good, actually) but his actions and disposition as a scorer make him more valuable as the second guy on your team to a more dominant offensive weapon. And that's fine, but that clearly means he's not underrated.

He's a very good player but not a superstar, that's all.

[Serpo]

Josh Howard is not even better then RJ and RJ is way below Vince.


And one thing. For those that decry the importance of "pretty" but empty statistics like points, rebounds, and assists, how's this:

Vince had the league's third highest on/offcourt differential (+13.3), behind only Nash (14.5) and Jamison (14.2). He was directly followed by Nowitzki, Garnett, and Bosh. LeBron James was 8th at +11.3. Iverson, Pierce, Ginobli, and Paul finished 11th, 13th, 14th, and 16th, respectively. About half the players in the top 20 (excluding the couple who played less than half of their teams' minutes and are therefore statistically less meaningful) have either been league MVPs, Finals MVPs, or serious candidates for league MVP. Almost all of the remainder are (multiple) allstars.

This is the single most probative statistic in judging the impact an individual player has on his team's performance. It is the epitome of "bottom line" in contrasting the simple degree to which a team can outscore its opponents with and without a player's participation. And yet some refuse to give Vince his due as a franchise caliber talent, even though he posted these incredible numbers while deferring to Jefferson for half a season.

I haven't thoroughly checked, but from glancing through the list, I'd bet that no other team in the league suffers the same gap in net on/offcourt stats between its top two players. Kidd was second for the Nets at +3.9, a 9.4 point drop from Carter (Jefferson and Boone next with +2.6 and +2.2, respectively.) In contrast, Marion and Stoudemire finished at +6.9 and 6.4 and Bell wasn't far behind at +5.0, solidifying Nash's paramount importance to the Suns' success but also underscoring that his numbers are more inflated than Vince's because of the superior and complimentary talent that shares the floor with him. Antawn Jameson, a multiple all-star who had a career year, had Butler and Stevenson chipping in at 10.4 and 7.4, so he was hardly an island. Even LeBron James, who seems the quintessential star with marginal support, had Daniel Gibson finishing at 5.5, a modest 5.8 points behind James.

The Nets aren't good with Vince but you don't want to know how bad they would be without him.

And the thing about Vince not beeing aggresive enough is simply not true considering that he shoots similar percentaces of jumpers then guys like Johnson , Kobe , Lebron etc . He has those kind of games where he shoots to much jumpers but everybody has then and he doesn't have more then other players.

[tsherkin]

Josh Howard is not even better then RJ and RJ is way below Vince.

Not more talented or more skilled, sure, I agree. More impactful, though.

Vince had the league's third highest on/offcourt differential (+13.3), behind only Nash (14.5) and Jamison (14.2). He was directly followed by Nowitzki, Garnett, and Bosh. LeBron James was 8th at +11.3. Iverson, Pierce, Ginobli, and Paul finished 11th, 13th, 14th, and 16th, respectively. About half the players in the top 20 (excluding the couple who played less than half of their teams' minutes and are therefore statistically less meaningful) have either been league MVPs, Finals MVPs, or serious candidates for league MVP. Almost all of the remainder are (multiple) allstars.

Yeah, but New Jersey sucks, the differential is skewed by how godawful a team they are and how bad their bench roster reeks of incompetence.

The Nets aren't good with Vince but you don't want to know how bad they would be without him.

Yes, exactly, but that's more a reflection on the Nets than on Vince; it's abundantly clear that he's an All-Star caliber swing player who has the ability to play a diverse, all-around game. That's hugely important to the success (or lack thereof) of his team, sure, but on/off differential is really highlighting how useless his sub is, not how good he is.

And the thing about Vince not beeing aggresive enough is simply not true considering that he shoots similar percentaces of jumpers then guys like Johnson , Kobe , Lebron etc . He has those kind of games where he shoots to much jumpers but everybody has then and he doesn't have more then other players.

Mind that percentage of jumpers doesn't actually tell you about shot selection. Kobe, for example, gets a lot of his jumpers out of post-ups, which are closer than most of the shots Vince takes. Kobe actually takes something like 8% more of his shots as jumpers but you'll notice that guys like Kobe finish a lot more successfully around the rim, which is partly because Vince is too often found trying cute trick shots because he's not into seeking contact.

Kobe finishes 8, 9% better in the point blank zone than does Vince (a gap of 8.7%), and the sample is comparable, though Kobe took 13 more shots in that zone over 6 more games.

Kobe takes more mid-range shots, true, about 1.5 more per game, but that's usually because he's posting up or getting the ball on the move for pinch-post attack. Vince has a pretty stale and predictable offensive repertoire.

The big deal is this, though: While Kobe takes more shots from 15- to 22-feet and roughly the same number of shots from point-blank (he actually takes .25 fewer shots per game from point blank than Vince), the big difference is in the three zones contiguous to the point-blank zone.

Kobe took nearly 100 (95) more shots from those zones than did Vince, most notably from the right block, where he loves to post. In doing so, he shot 44.4%, which is about 3% less than Vince but those are the money shots for drawing fouls and Kobe was drawing at a DrawF of 15.5% to Vince's 11.3%.

That's a huge advantage to Kobe over Vince, and one of the major separations between the two of them as scorers.

Joe Johnson isn't the scorer that Vince is on most nights, this is true. But because he defends a LOT better and is a superior passer, he can exert a greater impact on the game than can Vince on those nights when his poorly-selected shots aren't falling.

Josh Howard this year isn't better than Vince in any respect but last year, he was still a noticeably better rebounder and defender and he was hitting his three well enough that he was a significant offensive threat. Dallas is pretty balanced offensively behind Dirk but anyway, the point is scope of impact, not specific categories of skills. It's the whole "greater than the sum of your parts" deal, right?

Vince has the chance and ability to be better than pretty much any player I've mentioned (JJ, Josh Howard, not Kobe though) but he's too inconsistent in his approach to really take advantage of that potential.

THAT'S why those other guys are more valuable.

[NYspeedy]

all vince needs is a decent big man.
kobe had shaq & now have gasol.
wade had shaq before.

[Teko]

It's hard to finish tsherkin's post when he says JJ and Josh Howard are better than Vince...

Since when JJ is a "superior" passer and A LOT better defender? Did you watch Vince play at all for Nets? I know you do, once or twice when he plays against ur team, that's it...

VC has "the chance and ability" to be better than JJ and Josh Howard?... Because VC is inconsistent? and JJ and Howard are?

I don't even have to go through all the stats or whatever and I know VC is better than JJ and Howard. I think that proves the Mad Balla 15's point, no one is saying VC is as good as Kobe or LeBron, he is not, but he is underrated because people are actually taking time to argue Josh Howard is better than VC...

[tsherkin]

It's hard to finish tsherkin's post when he says JJ and Josh Howard are better than Vince...

Understand what I mean when I say it, though; I'm not saying Vince is less skilled or less talented, I'm saying those guys (Howard last year, not this year) exert greater impact on games because of certain traits and consistency. They're more valuable.

Since when JJ is a "superior" passer and A LOT better defender?

Pretty much his entire career.

Did you watch Vince play at all for Nets? I know you do, once or twice when he plays against ur team, that's it...

I watch him more than that, yes. Too, I watched him for 6+ seasons in Toronto before that.

VC has "the chance and ability" to be better than JJ and Josh Howard?... Because VC is inconsistent? and JJ and Howard are?

Johnson's consistently a superior defender and passer, yes. His offense isn't nearly as explosive as can be Carter's, that's true, but he's more consistently effective. Vince isn't an awful defender, he can sometimes be quite good, but as in all things basketball, he doesn't show it regularly.

I don't even have to go through all the stats or whatever and I know VC is better than JJ and Howard. I think that proves the Mad Balla 15's point, no one is saying VC is as good as Kobe or LeBron, he is not, but he is underrated because people are actually taking time to argue Josh Howard is better than VC...

I said Howard had a superior season last year and that Vince is, when possessed of the will, better than Howard...

[Blame Rasho]

If he had Manu's heart and determination, he would rival Kobe as* the best swing player in the NBA.

[spudwebb]

I stopped reading the thread after some guy said Josh Howard and JJ are better than Vince.....and scrolled down to see replies from ppl who had more sense. Glad there are some ppl who still understand the game of basketball...........Josh Howard?

[Mad Balla 15]

I don't think people ever question his talent. People question his heart. And it hasn't helped that his teams have not been particularly successful the last few years.

There are people on the Pistons board who wouldn't trade Rip for Vince, which I guess speaks to your point. I for one would make that trade in a heartbeat, but there definitely is a lot of hate for the guy right now.

This is the first time he missed the playoffs in 3 years, not to mention the first time his team has missed the post season in 6 years is it? Also he's made it to the 2nd round twice but came up short against the eventual NBA champs and the eventual ECF champs. That's more then a lot of all-stars can say about their teams.

[Basileus777]

Tsherkin is pretty much proving the OP's point. The only thing Johnson and Howard have on Carter is defense, but neither of them are really anything special on defense. You can't use the inconsistency knock on Carter in this case as Johnson and Howard are anything but consistent.

[Mad Balla 15]

As Hunter noted, it's not a question of talent.

Vince isn't underrated by most; he's rated exactly where he should be.

I didn't know Leo Routins posted on RealGM

He's an inconsistent All-Star caliber player who doesn't play up to his potential because he isn't aggressive enough and evidences weird and poor shot selection. He doesn't take advantage of his size enough in the post, doesn't slash aggressively enough, takes too many 3s, fades on his jumpers too often and doesn't play the kind of defense he could if he was focused more often.

These are all truths about Vince Carter. You take that away, he's still an All-Star, just not a superstar like a Kobe or a Lebron, etc. Joe Johnson and Josh Howard ARE better than Vince.

First of all you clearly haven't watched Vince the past few years and are exactly what I'm talking about that is wrong with people's perceptions about Vince. It's clear that your still going off your perception of Vince from his later years in Toronto and drink Leo's koolaid. It's also obvious your not willing to change these perceptions as your one of those people who once he has a perception of a player he doesn't change it especially for a player like Vince since he used to play for a team you root for.

Okay where to start, the post ups. That isn't Vince fault, that is more so the coaches fault. Whenever his coach puts him in the post he takes advantage but Frank rather give him the ball at the 3 point line and make him create from there which makes it hard for Vince since he has to go through a whole line of defense just waiting for him.

Secondly, Vince takes too many 3s? Once again going off a perception from Vince's later days in Toronto.

Vince's last 3 years in 3pt attempted: 4.7, 5.3 and 3.6
Johnson's last 3 years in 3pt attempted: 4.4, 5.5, 5.4
Pierce's last 3 years in 3pt attemted: 4.0, 5.9, 4.6
James's last 3 years in 3pt attempted: 4.0, 4.8, 4.0
Kobe's last 3 years in 3pt attempted: 6.5, 5.2, 5.1
McGrady's last 3 years in 3pt attempted: 5.0, 5.4, 4.5

Wow your right, it's a landslide, Vince DEFINITELY takes too many 3's compared to other all-star SG's/SF's in the league. I mean look at that Kobe guy who your defending, the guy barely takes any 3's at all. I mean 6.5, 5.2 and 5.1...psh that's nothing!

Lastly, please, Joe Johnson and Josh Howard better than Vince...pure comedy. Is that the same Josh Howard who's stinking it up in the playoffs and is a second, potentially third option on his declining team?

Not in talent or diversity of skill (well, JJ maybe because he's a better defender and passer) or in athleticism but because they are capable of exerting a comparable or superior impact on a game by nature of their respective styles of play.

Joe Johnson spent the fourth quarter of Game 4 abusing Boston by taking it directly to the rim and, as a consequence scored 20 points in the quarter, scoring 9 points in the last 3:30 or so (though 2 came on FTAs when Garnett fouled him to get back possession).

Your going to talk to me about Joe Johnson's one superior game of his career in the playoffs when Vince is top 7 all-time in PPG in the playoffs? Joe Johnson had a great game, I guess we should put him in the elite status in the league now! [/quote]

[Bgil]

Well how does this sound for a role player? "The 10-year veteran was one of only three NBA players (Kobe Bryant, LeBron James) to average more than 20 points, six rebounds and five assists throughout the season."

Way to cherry pick the stats. Ricky Davis put up 20, 5, and 5 not too long ago.

Secondly, Vince takes too many 3s? Once again going off a perception from Vince's later days in Toronto.

"Too many" is a relative phrase. It's also useful to note what percentage of his shots are threes and how often does he take a three when he should be trying to get a better shot (or pass the ball altogether).

[TAI8]

He is a great player. It is a shame that he peaked so soon.

[jaypo]

Vince probably has as much physical ability as Kobe. Maybe even MJ. He just doesn't have "it". He is more athletic, can jump higher, probably is as strong as both. But can you ask him to put his team on his back and will the team to victory? No, but he sure can dunk! I like VC. It's just that some players have "it", and some don't. VC is in the same class as T-Mac, Harold Miner, etc. Plenty of God-given talent. Not enough heart to get them to the next level. Now put them with a TD, Shaq, Garnett, etc.-maybe they could get there. Luckily, Kobe was able to play with Shaq thru his prime and gained valuable playoff experience. MJ got to play with Pippen, who although was a great complimentary player, still was top 50 of all time. When you have other players around you that can take some of the pressure off of you, you gain confidence. MJ and Kobe were lucky to have that talent, heart, and play with some great players.

[HarlemHeat37]

Carter is in my top 3 favorite players, but I'll agree with most of tsherkin's post..

I realize that Vince had more responsibility following the Kidd trade, in terms of handling the ball and exerting more offense because the Nets needed it more..but don't get it twisted..Carter DIDN'T play as good as he could have in the 1st half of the year..he had an foot injury which affected him, but that definitely wasn't the main reason he played so poorly..many Nets fans complained, and as a fan of VC, I complained too..he was being WAY too passive when Kidd was around, and didn't attack nearly as much..Carter in the 2nd half with more usage was a beast for the most part..

Vince Carter should play like he did in the 2nd half, ALL YEAR..he definitely could..I will defend him on this part..Lawrence Frank's offense is terrible, and has been for a while now..his rotations are poor and he puts his players in difficult positions to succeed..that doesn't excuse the fact that Vince doesn't give as much defensive effort that he should, and doesn't attack as much as he should..I do think it's a misconception that he DOESN'T attack, but he should do it more..I noticed that he doesn't get a lot of respect from the refs, and then gets discouraged from driving, due to the no-calls..

great scorer and playmaker..would be an ELITE 2nd option..Jason Kidd was New Jersey's 1st option, but he isn't a scorer, so it makes it irrelevant..Carter and Kidd's styles did not mix..I thought the Mavs should have made a move to acquire him, instead of Kidd..I think the Raptors could definitely use Carter, and I'd actually make a run at him, involving TJ Ford or something in a 3-way deal..

[Birth of the Cool]

these posts comparing Josh Howard to VC just reinforce OP's thread.

I can't believe that one poster made a comparison between VC and Ricky Davis and another put VC and T-Mac on Harold Miner's level. Laughable.