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Should the Celtics Bring Ray Allen Off the Bench?
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:22 pm
by magicfan4life05
He is obviously struggling offensively, but its not just yesterday, its been a pattern kind of all season long (although hes had some nice games) and it was really brought to the spot light last night with only getting 4 shots and ZERO points. I'm sure part of the blame should go on Doc Rivers, how hard it is to get a scorer like ray allen some looks?
I think with the second unit, allen could be more explosive looking for his shot, Barkley said last night the celtics lost the lead when both teams put their benches in, well this could definitely improve that and on top of that, get allen going b/c he's been struggling.
I said this earlier in the year:
magicfan4life05 wrote:ill probably get flamed, but does anyone else think they celtics should bring ray allen off the bench? I think they have enough scoring with kg and piece in the lineup and then insert posey for his D and you're not losing anything spacing wise with him in the game. Then you bring allen off the bench to help out the scoring/spark similar to dallas and san antonio..
obviously it's not a good idea now because how successful they've been but later on if they start to slip, it might be a good idea...imo having pierce, allen, and kg it too much firepower to start the game, but perfect to finish it if that makes sense...
http://realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=738166
what do you think?
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:35 pm
by JordansBulls
Who do you start then? I say Bring Ray off the bench and start Posey at SF and move Pierce to SG. That way Posey can defend the tougher guards.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:38 pm
by magicfan4life05
JordansBulls wrote:Who do you start then? I say Bring Ray off the bench and start Posey at SF and move Pierce to SG. That way Posey can defend the tougher guards.
I think they have enough scoring with kg and piece in the lineup and then insert posey for his D and you're not losing anything spacing wise with him in the game.
we think alike
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:48 pm
by celticfan42487
It wouldn't make a diffrence. Ray needs an offense that revolves around him if he is going to get a lot of shots and therefore points.
Something along the lines of double pick so he can curl off a mid range shot. And our bench isn't going to change the offense to acomodate him. So his best chances are in the first unit with open 3s that he will be getting after Garnett and Pierce create. Even if he only gets 4 open looks a half.
Then you factor in Cassell who kills anything that resembles ball movement and it becomes even more unlikely for Ray Allen to be used to his full effectivness.
It's sort of like the Redd syndrome.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:50 pm
by Vertical Limit
JordansBulls wrote:Who do you start then? I say Bring Ray off the bench and start Posey at SF and move Pierce to SG. That way Posey can defend the tougher guards.
That wouldn't look good for the Boston Three Party.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 2:56 pm
by TMU
I don't think it is a good idea. Having Ray Allen off the bench goes against the notion of the Big 3, Celtics current ideology.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 3:11 pm
by 6_Rings
they should stick to the current rotation. live and die by it if you may.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 3:13 pm
by A.J.
Why would they bring Allen off the bench? Maybe forinstant offense, but I wouldnt be a good idea.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 3:27 pm
by MagicMadness
Meh...66 wins during the regular season. I don't think you all of a sudden change things now with a 1-0 lead in the semifinals.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 3:28 pm
by A.J.
Only Ginobli can pull it off.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 4:21 pm
by greenbeans
i have a hard time seeing them making their first lineup change of the year in the 2nd round of the playoffs
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 4:28 pm
by MVP16
Even though Ray Allen had 0 points, he still had a big impact because Szczerbiak didn't even think about stepping an inch away from Ray Allen and give him an open 3. This allowed KG, and Rondo in the 1st half, space to attack in the paint.
I also don't like Ray Allen playing with the 2nd unit. He tries to create shots for himself and he isn't good doing that. He is best working off Pierce/KG for open looks or if teams decide no to give him open looks, then the others benefit.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 5:07 pm
by JordansBulls
T-Mac United wrote:I don't think it is a good idea. Having Ray Allen off the bench goes against the notion of the Big 3, Celtics current ideology.
But it would help contain Lebron even more so. Ray can come in to give Pierce a break.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 5:24 pm
by OzThunder
MVP16 wrote:Even though Ray Allen had 0 points, he still had a big impact because Szczerbiak didn't even think about stepping an inch away from Ray Allen and give him an open 3. This allowed KG, and Rondo in the 1st half, space to attack in the paint.
I also don't like Ray Allen playing with the 2nd unit. He tries to create shots for himself and he isn't good doing that. He is best working off Pierce/KG for open looks or if teams decide no to give him open looks, then the others benefit.
you'd think that it wouldn't be the fact that wally couldn't leave his man, but more that ray should be able to score on wally, or atleast demand a double team by getting around him and forcing the cavs to help (he had only 1 assist as well as his 0 points in 37 minutes). Really, if wally stays on ray you've got a 4 on 4...if ray makes a move and draws (for examples sake) ben wallace, you've got a 4 on 3 (rest of the floor) for ball movement and open shots. You'd think that a player of ray's calibre could still largely contribute in an off shooting night, especially with a weak defensive player like wally.
As to the OP, maybe starting one of the big 3 on the bench is a good idea. Maybe there isn't enough shots to share between rondo, allen, pierce and garnett at the same time, and i don't see where it could hurt them...?
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 5:42 pm
by celticfan42487
Ray Allen this year isn't the kind of player you double team. People should be able to walk by Wally on the floor but Ray is more likely to fumble around and shoot a fade away. Allen is just not a good ball dribler and if he's not the main focus of an offense via running off picks then there is no need to double team him because he's the beneficiary not the creator of good offense.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 6:19 pm
by celticfan42487
JordansBulls wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
But it would help contain Lebron even more so. Ray can come in to give Pierce a break.
from guarding LeBron? Or was this sarcasm?
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 6:22 pm
by A.J.
JordansBulls wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
But it would help contain Lebron even more so. Ray can come in to give Pierce a break.
Ray cant play SF, or do you mean with him or Posey in th game?
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 6:27 pm
by JordansBulls
celticfan42487 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-
from guarding LeBron? Or was this sarcasm?
I mean to give Pierce a break that way they still have a few scorers in the game.
Posted: Wed May 7, 2008 10:27 pm
by BillessuR6
I don˙t know why so many people think Ray is having a poor season. That is not the case. This is a post from poster RoyHobbs on celtic board:
Ray had a great shooting year.
TS%: 58.4% (fourth best in his 12 year career, 1.3 better than career average)
eFG%: 53.7% (fourth best in his career, 1.8 better than career average)
3PT%: 39.8% (fifth best in his career, 0.1 better than career average)
FT%. 90.7% (second best in his career, 1.8 better than career average)
I'm not sure what the problem is. His points are down, because he takes fewer shot attempts. His overall field goal percentage was very slightly down (although it was his second best in the last six seasons, and within 0.1 of his career average) because he took a higher percentage of three-pointers this year.
After the all-star break, he shot a phenomenal 48.7% overall, and 44.4% from three. For a shooting guard who concentrates on outside shots, those numbers are absolutely tremendous.
In terms of creating his own shot / going to the hoop, that hasn't been Ray's role this year, but it's definitely something he can do. 21% of Ray's shots have been from inside this year, and 36% of his shots overall have been unassisted.
On defense, Ray held opposing shooting guards to an Opponent's PER of 12.4, which is an absolutely phenomenal number, and I believe the best Opponent's PER of any starting shooting guard in the NBA. He's not a great individual defender, but in terms of results, he's been as good as anybody.
I'm not sure why people have the perception that Ray had an off year, but they couldn't be further from the truth.
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:16 am
by magicfan4life05
still no to the allen off the bench idea?
I honestly think bringing him off the bench will help him get more shots and give him a better chance to get in rhythm. With KG and Pierce in the linup, I dont think Rivers is creative enough to get him more shots in the offense, leaving him with limited opportunities to score, and when he does get looks, if he misses a couple in a row, he's a in a never ending slump as we see now.
Another reason is the pistons are going right at him on defense trying to attack him and wear him down by running around all day chasing hamilton. If you put in posey as a starter, he can do a better job relatively and still shoot the 3 and spread the floor spacing wise. Then when Allen gets in the game, he doesnt have to waste so much energy on defense and concentrate fully on his scoring.