Best Player Since Jordan's retirement...

[Farm Raid]

Kinda like how Milton kept coming to work even though he wasn't getting paid by Initech.

[Patty Mills]

kobe no doubt.

[Frosty]

It would be Duncan for the entire duration or Shaq for the early going. Kobe doesn't even get in the conversation. His claim to fame has been his "clutchness" but I think that it's odd that the media hasn't been questioning themselves on that yet.

0.410 FG%, 5.3 RPG, 5.0 APG, 3.3 TPG, 23.9 PPG (Career Finals Average)
This is clutch?
(yes these stats exclude the game in which he got injured vs Indy)

He's gone out with very passive performances in every elimination game since 2003.
He averages .396 FG%, 3 RPG, 2.6 APG, 4.6 TPG and 24.8 PPG in games they were eliminated. That's hardly going down fighting. The only decent game he had was in 2007 and he still had 6 TO's to 1 assist. 3 of the 5 elimination games had him getting 1 assist. He claims to have a ferocious competitive nature but goes out like a kitten.

[Big Lob]

I'm not even convinced Kobe is 'the best player on the planet' as ESPN/ABC sports beats down on me. Where are the intangibles? Jordan never ran Scottie out of town. Still a failure as the first option as the finals proved.

I voted Tim. He had more longevity than Shaq and isn't as lazy.

Shaq in his prime was just sick, though.

[ws26]

I'm going with 2006 Dwayne Wade. Best performance in a season since Jordan. Over a longer period I would give it to Shaq, though Duncan has been the most consistent.

[halfHAVOC]

Prime: Shaq
Overall: Duncan

[thebigjustice]

Clearly no player has taken the NBA by the scruff of the neck since Jordan's retirement. There is no best player.

You honestly don't think Shaq and Duncan winning 8 titles between them isn't taking the NBA by the scruff of it's neck?

It's obvious Shaq and Duncan have been the best players in the NBA (either of them could be number 1 or number 2) Then probably Iverson now probably KG then Kobe.

No one player has taken the NBA by the scruff of the neck since Jordan retired. When Jordan was playing there was no rival since Magic Johnson retired in 91. Clearly Duncan and Shaq rivaled each other hence there was no clear-cut "best" player after 1998.

[tsherkin]

lol.

Your argument that Kobe doesn't belong in the discussion is weak.

1999 was the lockout season. Shaq had his greatest season in 00, 01, 02. In 02-03, he didn't come to camp in shape and he actually hurt the Lakers squad. I think they barely beat Minny in the first round and got outsted in the second. In 04-05, Shaq was again in no way shape or form, himself. So that's really three seasons that Shaq was dominant. In those three seasons, Shaq managed 1 MVP. 3 Finals MVPs. 3 All NBA 1st Teams and 0 defensive team selections. With the exception of 2004-05, Shaq has not seen a particularly great year since 03. I hope we can at least agree on that.

I'm aware that Shaq's best season was 99-00, that's why I said 'before.' In 02-03, Shaq posted 28/11/3 in the regular season on over 57% FG and 10.8 FTA/g over 67 games. Then he averaged 27, 15 and 4 in the playoffs and yes, they were beaten by the eventual NBA-champion Spurs in 6 games after winning the first round series against Minny 4-2.

And FWIW, in those three seasons (00, 01 and 02), Shaq actually has three consecutive All-Defensive 2nd Team nominations.

And yes, Shaq hasn't been particularly noteworthy since 04-05 but that's why I said prime Shaq and discussed Duncan's career in this decade and not Shaq as the one who's reigned over its entirety. Clearly, Shaq's dominance ended after his first season in Miami.

You keep bringing up Kobe Bryant being the second option on the Lakers which is true. That was only true offensively though. Bryant was the Lakers best defender, he was their facilitator and best scorer in the clutch. Replace Bryant with another dynamic guard and in all probability, they don't win 3 consecutive titles. For support, please see Shaq's dominant years in Orlando prior to the lockout where he won no titles with arguably the best guard in the NBA, Penny Hardaway.

Shaq was still the foundation of their defense and his presence allowed Kobe to play D differently than he might otherwise have done. Yes, Kobe was a brilliant defender and yes, he was one of the initiators of the offense but don't ignore Ron Harper and Derek Fisher and Rick Fox, all of whom did a great deal of work initiating the offense while Kobe played the weakside guard in the triangle.

You counter with Penny, I counter with Wade... but what you ignore is the difference in scenario.

The Magic with Penny and Shaq didn't have a good mediator as their coach, they had Brian Hill. He is a bad coach, period. They weren't especially good on defense, didn't defend the three very well and their roleplayers were all chokers (see Dennis Scott and Nick Anderson).

That compared to Phil Jackson, Rick Fox, Big Shot Bob, Derek Fisher and Ron Harper (for two of the titles) and even Glen Rice for the first ring. The talent on those Lakers was a lot better, so the Penny comment is a weak one.

I think if you're looking at the situation realistically, Shaq and Kobe were more partners than Batman and Robin. Shaq was more dominant offensively, but was a major liability at the line and with fouls that Kobe had to remedy with superhuman play at crucial times.
Shaq does have 3 Finals MVPs, but in each of those years except 99-00, Kobe was the MVP of the WCF and in 99-00, Kobe was the catalyst for that 15 point comeback against Portland. Go back and watch the tape.

I disagree, since the offense was built around Shaq as the first option and the team routinely had regular season success without Kobe. Of course, since the entire team besides those two were roleplayers, it makes no sense not to acknowledge Kobe as a critical component but the same could be said of Clyde Drexler and Olajuwon in 94-95 and no one would mistake Drexler for being The Man.

Kobe was inseparably important to those titles, the way Parish or McHale were to the three rings Bird's Celtics won... but they were still Bird's Celtics. Kobe definitely filled the Pippen role in 99-00, though he did come up with some epic performances... just as did Scottie from time to time.

In 00-01, he started to become more important but it was still ultimately Shaq's presence that dictated the way the Lakers played the game and that remained true for their final title. The Lakers seemed to lose when Kobe wasn't aggressively looking to enter the ball into Shaq for a touch in the low block as often as he could.

Shaq doesn't really have the pre-requisites to be in this discussion without Kobe, which incidentally is the same argument ou use to disqualify Kobe. Unless you are prepared to argue that Shaq would be in the same position playing without Kobe (laughable), your analysis is inconsistent. Trying to reconcile it with "shaq was the first option" is arbritrary at best and ignorant at worst. I'd expect more from such a respected member of realgm.

An ad hominem attack, how clever and original... Functionally speaking, there are only a handful of guys to really win without a second star. You're mainly talking about Olajuwon (93-94), Duncan (02-03) and Rick Barry (74-75), though Barry had the ROY and Wilkes was an All-Star the year after IIRC.

So in any discussion, there will be players who were critical to the title but yet were not the focus of the team. The triple-post offense in L.A. worked by entering the ball into Shaq and working from there as its primary method of operation. Everything they did, the post splits, the baseline hand-offs, all of it, that was done around Shaq's passing. The entire offense was tweaked to accommodate a dominant 5 instead of two dominant wings. Phil Jackson, the nature of the game and every observer was very clear on Shaq as the central cog.

Remember, Kobe was nothing special in his first two years (wasn't even a starter) and the Lakers went to the second round and the conference finals. That's with Del Harris as the coach (no offense to Del but he couldn't handle those particular players). Lockout season, 2nd round but they had 3 different coaches and a bunch of injuries and roster turnover.

Boom, Phil comes in and title. Again, Kobe had some key performances but fundamentally it is clear that Shaq was the primary option around which all of their offense was built and he was All-Defensive 2nd Team three years in a row, contributing as he was by playing good help defense and locking down the paint.

I also think that you're focusing on the wrong variable. You point out that Kobe may not be the best player in the game today with Lebron having an argument. Well, ok, but I don't see what that has to do with THIS debate. Kobe has been arguably the best player in the league as long as Shaq has arguably been the best player in the league (Shaq in 00, 01, 02; Kobe in 06, 07, 08). So for roughly 30% of the time period we speak of, Bryant and Shaq have both been the majority pick for "best player in the game."

Kobe has not.

From 99-00 through 02-03, there's no sane individual who would say that Kobe was the best player in the league and from 02-03 through 04-05, Duncan was clearly the best player in the league, with a little Garnett thrown in for good measure (and no, I'm not going by MVP voting, though that lines up rather nicely). Kobe never really approached that pedestal. Best at his position, absolutely, but certainly not best in the league.

Kobe's first argument comes in his 35 ppg season in 05-06, the first year the Lakers under Kobe Bryant made the playoffs. But in that same season, you start having to deal with Lebron, who looked as good or better than Kobe and also managed to do more with his team.

Finally, we come to this season. Kobe finally doesn't miss the playoffs or flame out in the first round because he's got some teammates he trusts and he does some impressive things with his team, wins an MVP and has a legitimate argument for being best player in the league.

3 years as MAYBE the best player in the league is a lot different from Shaq clearly dominating the first 3 or 4 years and then Duncan and Garnett being the best players for a few years. Kobe can't even assertively clear Lebron.

The difference is, at no point in the decade (with the possible exception of 99-00) has Kobe not been seen as a top five player in the game. Shaq had not been a top 5 player in at least four of the years in question (2006-07, 2003-04, 2007-08, 2005-06). So for about 40% of the time period in question, Shaq has not even been a top 5 player in the league and last year, it would be hard to put him in the top 20.

None of that is relevant because Kobe hasn't been a consensus top-2 or even top-3 player for that same period. Like I said, Shaq's prime was the best part of this decade in terms of individual performance but Duncan's clearly had the best career and Lebron has had individual performances as good as Kobe's with greater team success as the Man. Before that, Kobe was indeed benefiting from Shaq's presence. The very fact that Shaq managed to do what he has done with Penny and Wade kind of makes Kobe more replaceable and expendable than Shaq.

At this point, looking at their careers collectively from 99 on, I think it is pretty reasonable to suggest Kobe has surpassed Shaq. One can argue that Shaq was simply more dominant during his period of being the best player in the league, but an argument that sustained greatness is better seems to be the rationale approach given that we're talking about an extended time period.

You can argue that Kobe has had a longer peak during the decade, and that'd be true... but I don't see where you're going.

The other raw data seems to be pick and choose. Do you value rebounds or assists. Do you want better FG% or higher FT%, etc.

Depends on the position but Shaq's offensive dominance has been clear; his DrawF and TS% have both been absolutely ridiculous and his rebounding has been key.

Also, if you'd like to carry this debate further, we can go into an analysis of how many games each player has actually played over the last 10 years. With Shaq missing large chunks of each season, it is hard to put him in the discussion.

That's a difficult argument to make given the results and the fact that he's still played 65+ games a year, a number skewed more by the end of the decade than the beginning (59 and 40 and 61 games played in his last 3 seasons). He played 67+ games for the first 6 years of the decade which, while not as good as Kobe, is still sufficient by which to exert his impact on a team.

Of course, if you're looking at Shaq's career holistically (pre-99 + post 99) I think he's had a more illustrious career, but for the past decade, Kobe has been the best player followed by Duncan.

He's a good example of a player who's been at his peak longer, true, but he has never displayed the kind of unstoppable dominance of O'neal. Kobe's labored under various issues and has struggled mightily with his style of play while Shaq was clearly a power-post player who knew what he was doing and did it as well or better than anyone else in league history. His peak was about as untouchably dominant as it gets.

How are we defining "best?"

Most dominant at his position? That one works for both Shaq and Kobe, because there's been no competition for Kobe at the 2 for that spot. T-Mac, for a year or two before injuries and his crappy Orlando teams took him out. Most of his competition has come of late and from the small forward spot (mind, I don't mean Kobe's playing against stiffs, only that no one seriously threatened his spot as best SG of the period... and yes, that includes AI).

Most skilled? Well, Kobe was more skilled than Shaq, sure, but Shaq's skills translated into greater efficacy on the court, which is more important.

Shaq was inarguably the focal point of the L.A. dynasty's offense, this is not something you can retroactively alter. It happened, it's been confirmed by the coaching staff, by players from around the league, by other coaches and scouts... it's the way it was and saying otherwise is like trying to tell us the Earth is flat... factually incorrect. That establishes a rather significant sentiment about Shaq, because Kobe was a piece put AROUND Shaq. Well, developed from within to replace EJ and NVE but still.

[ws26]

There's gotta be a limit to post length.

[LakerFanMan]

I can't believe Shaq is last. He's easily been the best player in the last decade. He has just as many rings as Duncan with better numbers. He was just simply more dominant.

[tha_rock220]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think he would be in the argument for the 3rd spot with Kobe....

Um.. NO!

KG will never be considered better than Kobe because he just isn't.

He's a step below Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe.

Um.....NO!

Kobe is in the discussion with KG and AI as the 3rd best player since Jordan's retirement. He's not anywhere close to Duncan and Shaq at this point.

[TheKingOfVa360]

-= original quote snipped =-



I think he would be in the argument for the 3rd spot with Kobe....

Um.. NO!

KG will never be considered better than Kobe because he just isn't.

He's a step below Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe.

Um.....NO!

Kobe is in the discussion with KG and AI as the 3rd best player since Jordan's retirement. He's not anywhere close to Duncan and Shaq at this point.

I agree

[CB4MiamiHeat]

Seeing Kobe kill Lebron in the comparison polls the last 2 seasons...seeing him kill Wade in a poll after the 2006 season. I thought maybe i was underrating Kobe, but now hes beating Shaq and Duncan as the best players this era? He just has a big fanbase on the internet, really big fanbase.

[QBF]

(1) Shaq - The Most Dominant Player since Michael Jordan retired. He is the only guy that teams couldn't stop, even when they wanted to. He is the one player of this generation that deserves top 10/top 12 consideration. Won champonships with two excellent wing players (Kobe and D Wade) and would have won with a third (Penny Hardaway) earlier in his career if Jordan hadn't come out of retirement. He won four titles (perhaps one illegitimately), but it easily could have been six.

(2) Tim Duncan - The most consistent superstar of the last 10 years, and he has the championships to prove it. Basketball conventional wisdom has always held that dominant big men win championships. Numbers #1 and #2 prove it. This proves why Magic, Bird, and Michael were so special and why that era of basketball is so beloved - It was the one era of basketball when the wing players were the dominant players in the NBA.

Then there is a big drop.

(3) Kevin Garnett - At 7-0, the best all-around player in the NBA, a superstar who is unselfish, a glue player, and can control a game with his defense and his intangibles, without even scoring. The Scottie Pippen of this decade, he would have won multiple titles if he had played with a true scorer for more of his career.

(4) Dwayne Wade - The most dominant Finals performance of the decade, and the wing player who carried the biggest burden playing alongside Shaq. Injuries threaten his future reputation.

(5) Lebron James - Of all the players on this list, he is the only one who has a real chance to move up, a supertar wing-player who can dominate the game like Magic, Bird, and Michael did. His teams have been horrible, second only to how horrible his coach has been. He has the guts and mental toughness to carry a team, even when his shot isn't falling and even when he has to do it all himself. He single handedly upset Detroit last season and almost did the same to Boston this year. With a great coach and a young big who could score in the paint, he would dominate the NBA for the next 10 years. I would fire everyone in that organization if I was their owner.

(6) Steve Nash - No one has raised the play of those around them more than Steve Nash. Without him, Phoenix is a lottery team, and Stoudamire and Marion would never have been the winners that they became. He is now starting to show his age, and his best years were wasted chasing Duncan's Spurs. (He also may have been deprived of a title illegitimately.) His play revitalized the NBA and opened the door for the revival of the superstar point-guard that the game is now enjoying. (Just wait until Chris Paul plays a couple more seasons.)

(7) Dirk Nowitzki - A 7-foot freak. It was neck and neck between he and Garnett until this season. Unfortunately for Dirk, he came up short against the Heat and last year against the Warriors, and I don't think he will ever recover psychologically. At one point, he was better than Garnett and the third best player since Jordan's retirement. With his unbelievable shot at that height, he has been a unique weapon on countless winning teams that, let us not forget, beat a prime Duncan's Spurs team in the playoffs just two seasons ago. At his peak, he was impossible to guard.

(8) Kobe Bryant - Without question, the best scorer in the NBA since Jordan retired. He can score from anywhere on the court and has incredible strength and durability that allowed him to score 81 points in a single game. (No matter how bad the defense was, most players would simply get too tired to score that many points.) He obviously benefited from playing with Shaq in his prime, which allowed the young, before-his-prime Kobe to develop while winning. So far in his prime (24-29), Kobe has missed the playoffs once, been bounced out of the playoffs in the first-round twice, and, in his two Finals performances, cost his team the title once (against Detroit) and sleep-walked through the other (against Boston). A scoring champion with superb all-around ability (including his defense) whose mental toughness is questionable and (despite his reputation) seems to disappear in the clutch.

Honorable Mention: Chris Webber (See #1 above.)

[HarlemHeat37]

QBF's post is gonna draw some outrage..I liked it though, bro..

[kooldude]

QBF's post is gonna draw some outrage..I liked it though, bro..

haha, you like it because you're a Kobe hater.


That list is stupid. There is no way Kobe is any lower than #4 behind Shaq, Duncan, and KG.

And there's no "big drop" between Duncan and KG. This year proves all those KG critics that he can't win it all. This year proves that the gap that exist between Duncan and KG is mostly management, coaching, and teammates. Though Duncan is probably the better player, it's by a small margin.

[thebigjustice]

(1) Shaq - The Most Dominant Player since Michael Jordan retired. He is the only guy that teams couldn't stop, even when they wanted to. He is the one player of this generation that deserves top 10/top 12 consideration. Won champonships with two excellent wing players (Kobe and D Wade) and would have won with a third (Penny Hardaway) earlier in his career if Jordan hadn't come out of retirement. He won four titles (perhaps one illegitimately), but it easily could have been six.

(2) Tim Duncan - The most consistent superstar of the last 10 years, and he has the championships to prove it. Basketball conventional wisdom has always held that dominant big men win championships. Numbers #1 and #2 prove it. This proves why Magic, Bird, and Michael were so special and why that era of basketball is so beloved - It was the one era of basketball when the wing players were the dominant players in the NBA.

Then there is a big drop.

(3) Kevin Garnett - At 7-0, the best all-around player in the NBA, a superstar who is unselfish, a glue player, and can control a game with his defense and his intangibles, without even scoring. The Scottie Pippen of this decade, he would have won multiple titles if he had played with a true scorer for more of his career.

(4) Dwayne Wade - The most dominant Finals performance of the decade, and the wing player who carried the biggest burden playing alongside Shaq. Injuries threaten his future reputation.

(5) Lebron James - Of all the players on this list, he is the only one who has a real chance to move up, a supertar wing-player who can dominate the game like Magic, Bird, and Michael did. His teams have been horrible, second only to how horrible his coach has been. He has the guts and mental toughness to carry a team, even when his shot isn't falling and even when he has to do it all himself. He single handedly upset Detroit last season and almost did the same to Boston this year. With a great coach and a young big who could score in the paint, he would dominate the NBA for the next 10 years. I would fire everyone in that organization if I was their owner.

(6) Steve Nash - No one has raised the play of those around them more than Steve Nash. Without him, Phoenix is a lottery team, and Stoudamire and Marion would never have been the winners that they became. He is now starting to show his age, and his best years were wasted chasing Duncan's Spurs. (He also may have been deprived of a title illegitimately.) His play revitalized the NBA and opened the door for the revival of the superstar point-guard that the game is now enjoying. (Just wait until Chris Paul plays a couple more seasons.)

(7) Dirk Nowitzki - A 7-foot freak. It was neck and neck between he and Garnett until this season. Unfortunately for Dirk, he came up short against the Heat and last year against the Warriors, and I don't think he will ever recover psychologically. At one point, he was better than Garnett and the third best player since Jordan's retirement. With his unbelievable shot at that height, he has been a unique weapon on countless winning teams that, let us not forget, beat a prime Duncan's Spurs team in the playoffs just two seasons ago. At his peak, he was impossible to guard.

(8) Kobe Bryant - Without question, the best scorer in the NBA since Jordan retired. He can score from anywhere on the court and has incredible strength and durability that allowed him to score 81 points in a single game. (No matter how bad the defense was, most players would simply get too tired to score that many points.) He obviously benefited from playing with Shaq in his prime, which allowed the young, before-his-prime Kobe to develop while winning. So far in his prime (24-29), Kobe has missed the playoffs once, been bounced out of the playoffs in the first-round twice, and, in his two Finals performances, cost his team the title once (against Detroit) and sleep-walked through the other (against Boston). A scoring champion with superb all-around ability (including his defense) whose mental toughness is questionable and (despite his reputation) seems to disappear in the clutch.

Honorable Mention: Chris Webber (See #1 above.)

Well said.

[RoyceDa59]

It's shocking how quickly people forget just how dominant a prime Shaq was.

Duncan was consistant, Kobe was heroic, but neither Duncan nor Kobe had a 3 years stretch where the entire world was saying "unless he plays for your team, you are not going to win the NBA championship." Shaq from 2000-2002 was so incredibly dominant the entire world knew the Lakers were going to win the championship for the simple reason that NOBODY could guard Shaq. NOBODY. Not even 3 guys could stop the Diesel from cramming the rim with ferocious dunk after ferocious dunk. Shaq would drop 30 and 15 while getting a teams entire frontcourt into foul trouble. Every western conference team was going out grabbing as many 270lbs 7fters to use against Shaq in the playoffs and it still didn't matter. Mediocre 7fters like Kandi and Dampier were getting exhorbinant contracts because they had 6 hard fouls they could use against Shaq. It didn't matter. Nothing mattered. The difference is that Shaq was UNDENIABLY the best player in the league. The same cannot be said about Duncan or Kobe. Neither Duncan or Kobe has ever, or will ever, reach the level of total and utter dominance that we saw from The Diesel during the 3peat and it's for this reason that Shaq has been the best player since Jordan's retirement.

+1 Shaq

[JordansBulls]

(1) Shaq - The Most Dominant Player since Michael Jordan retired. He is the only guy that teams couldn't stop, even when they wanted to. He is the one player of this generation that deserves top 10/top 12 consideration. Won champonships with two excellent wing players (Kobe and D Wade) and would have won with a third (Penny Hardaway) earlier in his career if Jordan hadn't come out of retirement. He won four titles (perhaps one illegitimately), but it easily could have been six.

(2) Tim Duncan - The most consistent superstar of the last 10 years, and he has the championships to prove it. Basketball conventional wisdom has always held that dominant big men win championships. Numbers #1 and #2 prove it. This proves why Magic, Bird, and Michael were so special and why that era of basketball is so beloved - It was the one era of basketball when the wing players were the dominant players in the NBA.

Then there is a big drop.

(3) Kevin Garnett - At 7-0, the best all-around player in the NBA, a superstar who is unselfish, a glue player, and can control a game with his defense and his intangibles, without even scoring. The Scottie Pippen of this decade, he would have won multiple titles if he had played with a true scorer for more of his career.

(4) Dwayne Wade - The most dominant Finals performance of the decade, and the wing player who carried the biggest burden playing alongside Shaq. Injuries threaten his future reputation.

(5) Lebron James - Of all the players on this list, he is the only one who has a real chance to move up, a supertar wing-player who can dominate the game like Magic, Bird, and Michael did. His teams have been horrible, second only to how horrible his coach has been. He has the guts and mental toughness to carry a team, even when his shot isn't falling and even when he has to do it all himself. He single handedly upset Detroit last season and almost did the same to Boston this year. With a great coach and a young big who could score in the paint, he would dominate the NBA for the next 10 years. I would fire everyone in that organization if I was their owner.

(6) Steve Nash - No one has raised the play of those around them more than Steve Nash. Without him, Phoenix is a lottery team, and Stoudamire and Marion would never have been the winners that they became. He is now starting to show his age, and his best years were wasted chasing Duncan's Spurs. (He also may have been deprived of a title illegitimately.) His play revitalized the NBA and opened the door for the revival of the superstar point-guard that the game is now enjoying. (Just wait until Chris Paul plays a couple more seasons.)

(7) Dirk Nowitzki - A 7-foot freak. It was neck and neck between he and Garnett until this season. Unfortunately for Dirk, he came up short against the Heat and last year against the Warriors, and I don't think he will ever recover psychologically. At one point, he was better than Garnett and the third best player since Jordan's retirement. With his unbelievable shot at that height, he has been a unique weapon on countless winning teams that, let us not forget, beat a prime Duncan's Spurs team in the playoffs just two seasons ago. At his peak, he was impossible to guard.

(8) Kobe Bryant - Without question, the best scorer in the NBA since Jordan retired. He can score from anywhere on the court and has incredible strength and durability that allowed him to score 81 points in a single game. (No matter how bad the defense was, most players would simply get too tired to score that many points.) He obviously benefited from playing with Shaq in his prime, which allowed the young, before-his-prime Kobe to develop while winning. So far in his prime (24-29), Kobe has missed the playoffs once, been bounced out of the playoffs in the first-round twice, and, in his two Finals performances, cost his team the title once (against Detroit) and sleep-walked through the other (against Boston). A scoring champion with superb all-around ability (including his defense) whose mental toughness is questionable and (despite his reputation) seems to disappear in the clutch.

Honorable Mention: Chris Webber (See #1 above.)

Kobe is 8th

[Tom Baker]

Prime: Shaq
Overall: Duncan

Yeah, okay. +1 I couldn't decided between Shaq and Duncan, but this is a perfect compromise.

Kobe could still get there, but he has stuff to prove still.

P.S.: I know it's early, but LeBron will probably be in this conversation soon. Too bad he's never been on a good team.