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...or a combination of both?

2 Finals appearances under LB, and 1 championship (a bonehead Rasheed play away from 2). He's replaced by Flip and boom, 3 losses in the conference finals. It's hard to argue that coaching wasn't reponsible for that drop. The team just lacked discipline under Flip, in my opinion.

So, did Larry Brown have them playing better than they were? Or is Flip that bad a coach?

Larry Brown beat an injury riddled Heat team 4-3. Flip lost to a healthy Heat team 2-4. In between, the Heat added depth in Antonio Walker, Jason Williams, Gary Payton, and James Posey.

Well you gotta remember that Ben Wallace left after Flip's first season. That for me was the major kicker. Flip's presence was what doomed Detroit. That team under Larry Brown was a formidable opponent.

A combination of both. But Flips failures weren't predicated on Brown's success but what Flip couldn't do as coach. It was just highlighted because Larry Brown COULD do those things.

I think the longer Sheed was there, the worse that "we can turn it on when we want" tude got. Flip wasn't tough though and let it slide.

Larry Brown got them ready for every game he coached. Now of course in the second season he was in and out. Pretty much had 1 foot out of the door but thats just Larry Brown. When he coached them...they were prepared for games. They came into games with a sense of urgency. They raved about how Flip brought freedom to their game. Well freedom and that current Pistons roster is a bad combination b/c they only play hard when they feel like it. Thats just how their guys are.

They need a coach to get on them. Larry Brown did that and Flip didn't. Brown kept them down to earth even if it was hard for them and overbearing for em to listen too...I mean being told how much you still suck after winning a title the year before must be hard to take but it worked for em b/c they made it back to the Finals and yea...they were one bone head Sheed play away from beating the great Spurs.

Larry Brown had a better team @his disposal for both years than Flip did for any of his 3.

The past 2 seasons were deff. underachievements.

The difference between the 2 coaches was the defense. In 2004 and 05, the Pistons were the league's best defense and setting records. Since the new defensive rules were implemented and the coaching change made, the Pistons haven't been able to take it to the same level on the defensive end. Maybe it's the fact that the rules were kinder to the Pistons style of play, maybe it's Larry Brown being a better defensive coach, or maybe it's a little of both. Who knows, maybe part of it the last couple years is missing the vintage Ben Wallace?

Rasheeed!!! wrote:Larry Brown had a better team @his disposal for both years than Flip did for any of his 3.

The past 2 seasons were deff. underachievements.

Not really, the 2005 and 2006 teams were the same team except in 2006 they let Elden Campbell leave when they drafted Jason Maxiell and signed Mo Evans. I'd even argue that this years team was better than 2005.

2005 Pistons:
Billups/Arroyo/Hunter
Rip/Delfino
Prince
Sheed/Dice
Ben/Darko/Campbell

2006 Pistons:
Billups/Arroyo/Hunter
Rip/Delfino
Prince/Evans
Sheed/Dice/Maxiell
Ben/Darko

2008 Pistons:
Billups/Stuckey/Hunter
Rip/Afflalo
Prince/Hayes
Dice/Maxiell/Johnson
Sheed/(Nazr/Primoz)Ratliff

IMO, Flip Saunders actually had better rosters in his three years than Larry Brown took to the Finals in 2005.

Ben Wallace's play made a HUGE difference. He was probably the best post defender and maybe the best rebounder in the league in his piston days.

The bottom line though is that flip just couldn't control this team. The Pistons, mostly sheed, just don't play to their full potential every game. Some times they go out there and half a$$ entire games, other times they look like champs. It's kind of odd, but I think they underachieved during flip but I also don't think they would have won any more finals.

the pistons seem to lack desire when playing underflip, and LB, they were motivated...

I would argue that it's actually neither.

I think Larry Brown is the sort of coach who can add to a team's talent. a B+ team will become an A- team with him.

With Flip Saunders, a B+ team will get a B or a B+.

Dumars hasn't done anything significant to upgrade the Pistons since 2004.

The core players are the same but older and slower. Sure they have younger guys but they're not consistent.

Defensive priority has also gone south.

Bottomline is if a one-man team LeBron James can snatch a 2-0 series lead away from you then you know something is flawed in your team.

You need better players...period.

The Flip Pistons probably could have pulled out the games against the Heat once Wade jacked his rib muscle and the Lakers imploded for reasons known to all those here.

LB is a better coach than Flip but he had favorable circumstances in those 2 seasons. Ben Wallace' deterioration didn't help Flip out either.

Da-Met wrote:I think Larry Brown is the sort of coach who can add to a team's talent. a B+ team will become an A- team with him.

so what happened in New York? Why did he blow the pistons chance of repeating by playing stupid matchups? Why did the Pistons win more games under Flip?
People acted like LB worked some magic and had the Pistons playing like a dynasty, in reality that teams was very talented and we can see that now. Championship year they squeaked by Indiana and New Jersey and dominated the finals. Break it down, that's one great series in 2 years. That doesn't happen because LB is on the bench, it happens because a team is hungry.

Jamaal Tinsley's injury in the 2004 ECF and Eddie Jones's general gimpiness in the 2005 ECF can be considered factors. The past three seasons, the Pistons have faced much healthier opponents.

The mention of Dumars is apt too. Look at his MLE signings:
2002 = Chauncey
2003 = EC
2004 = Dice
All great signings. Who'd he get after that of any note?

I think Brown and Saunders are both good coaches, and I think the Pistons are fooling themselves to merely blame a coach. The 2006 and 2007 ECFs were winnable series.

Rooster wrote:
The mention of Dumars is apt too. Look at his MLE signings:
2002 = Chauncey
2003 = EC
2004 = Dice
All great signings. Who'd he get after that of any note?

He tried C-Webb out and that could've been a great pick up, but it didn't work out.

If that's his best free-agent acquisition of the last four years, I rest my case.

EDIT: Too bad Mohammed didn't work out, that actually could've been a nice signing. Good job on his part to try it. Then the Mohammed for Brezec/Herrmann trade was well-planned, but neither received enough minutes. So that part isn't so bad. Even so...

Rooster wrote:If that's his best free-agent acquisition of the last four years, I rest my case.

EDIT: Too bad Mohammed didn't work out, that actually could've been a nice signing. Good job on his part to try it. Then the Mohammed for Brezec/Herrmann trade was well-planned, but neither received enough minutes. So that part isn't so bad. Even so...

in fairness to joe, if elden campbell is a good sign then so was dale davis. good players on the mle are very hard to come by, unless you're the current ring chasers destination like boston was this year.