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Except for Turiaf (and I really don't want to count him because he played American collegiate ball) why are all Euros soft?

(When I say Euros I include the Argentinians because they all play the same)

It doesn't matter how long they play in the NBA, it seems they can never get over being soft. From Tony Parker to Boris Diaw. From Gasol to Dirk. From Vlad to Bargnani. Soft. Never fails. And to compound it most of them can't play defense to save their lives.

I would never want a starting line up of more than 2 Euros. Unless maybe I had KG, Kobe, or some other beastly player.

include marko jaric in the not soft category.

Include Sergio Rodriguez in the dicussion.

IIRC, Spurs won a title starting Rasho/Parker and Oberto/Parker

Dirk isn't really soft, the dude will turn, face up, and attack the rack hard and get blasted, and he'll go right back into it. Dirk's post game isn't good enough for him to dominate downlow, but that certainly doesn't make him soft. He's a pretty strong rebounder considering his athleticism, and it goes up in the playoffs, and he almost always plays with other good rebounders (Damp/Diop, Howard, Kidd.)

NO-KG-AI wrote:Dirk isn't really soft, the dude will turn, face up, and attack the rack hard and get blasted, and he'll go right back into it. Dirk's post game isn't good enough for him to dominate downlow, but that certainly doesn't make him soft. He's a pretty strong rebounder considering his athleticism, and it goes up in the playoffs, and he almost always plays with other good rebounders (Damp/Diop, Howard, Kidd.)

Dirk is soft. He goes to the rim to draw fouls not to score. Not to mention the guy is a grade a flopper. Also he is NOT a strong rebounder. He is slightly above avergae for his position. The guy gets rebounds because a) the Mavs defense is good and forces alot of missed shots b) he plays alot of minutes c) he is usually not guarding anyone. Good rebounders box out. Dirk doesn't not. This is a guy who got shut down by Tracy McGrady and Stephen Jackson over a course of a series.

Nocioni, Kirilenko, Sefolosha, Diaw, Scola, Jaric,Turiaf, Ginobili, Oberto ...are not soft.
I don't think theres a correlation of europeans and being soft

obinna wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Dirk is soft. He goes to the rim to draw fouls not to score. Not to mention the guy is a grade a flopper. Also he is NOT a strong rebounder. He is slightly above avergae for his position. The guy gets rebounds because a) the Mavs defense is good and forces alot of missed shots b) he plays alot of minutes c) he is usually not guarding anyone. Good rebounders box out. Dirk doesn't not. This is a guy who got shut down by Tracy McGrady and Stephen Jackson over a course of a series.

Dirk is a perimeter player, and they are both excellent perimeter defenders.... what's your point?

Dirk isn't soft. He fights through injuries, he draws a lot of fouls, he is a good rebounder, etc.

Manu isn't soft. Flopper, yes, but definitely not soft. He gets hammered while driving to the lane, at times, he gets up and goes right back at it. Watch 2005 playoffs and notice how he didn't back down from tough, physical and sometimes down right thuggish play by Denver, Seattle or Detroit big men.

Nocioni, Kirilenko, Garbajosa, etc. aren't soft.

A lot of Europeans are soft though. Like Bargnani on my Raptors

But then so are a lot of Americans.

This is the NBA....none of these guys are soft......

How is Garnett a beastly player?
He is a 7 footer than lives in the perimeter shooting jumpers.
If he catches the ball in the post being guarded by Earl Boykins he would shot a fadaway jumper.
In the defense he is a roamer. He is a great defensive player, but far from a beast. In fact he suffers a lot if he's guarding a good back to the basket player.
The other day Gasol, who isn't strong by any means, dunked in his face with a ease I haven't ever seen in this playoffs by Pau.
Wait, KG screams.
Yes, he's beastly.

Your definition of "soft" is completely subjective. Put up some stats to back up your claims otherwise your opinion is worth as much as it costs...nothing.

It dependes on where you want to draw the line.

What does it make a player soft? Flops? Then D-Whistle is the softest in the league... Whiny faces? Timmy, KB24, LeBronze... Backpedaling on fights? Melo... Not agressive enough? McGrady, Nash... Someone brought up the Garnett cause, you should include him in the soft category too for a lot of reasons (and he's the reference for beastly... pfffff) Boozer? Jamison? Bosh? All-Stars PF's!!!!!

You just can't generalize like that. Some serbian players are tough as nails. The Lavrinovic brothers for example were in jail (at least one of them) and play as tough as anyone on the Association.

But if you want to find a reason, then it's probably because they try to bring the most skilled players from overseas, sharp shooters and good handlers, and it's not very common to be a "skilled, fundamentals" type of player and a tough player at the same time.

The Main Event wrote:Your definition of "soft" is completely subjective. Put up some stats to back up your claims otherwise your opinion is worth as much as it costs...nothing.

1)I didn't know I have to put up a stat for every comment. I guess I have to put up a stat to show someone is a good defender. i guess I have to put up a stat to say who hustles. I guess I have to put up a stat to say who is off the ball. You sound stupid

2) soft - a player who constantly a) shys away from contact b) flops. We all know what soft is stop being a tool.

3) You people should try reading the posts. I didn't say no American born players are soft, but on average they are Europeans are a hell of alot "softer" that American players.

4) Dirk is soft. The guys is such a flopper it disgusts me. Everyone plays hurt so that doesn't disqualify you from being soft.

5) If you say KG is soft then so are 80% of the players in the NBA.

If you say that all Euros (except Turiaf) are soft then KG is soft, and yes, 80% of the league is soft.

You set the standard very high, pal.

The reason as I said before, that european players, maybe, are softer overall, is probably because the basketball overseas is more fundamentally sound, and nearly everybody can shoot the rock, pass well and put it on the floor. And usually that skill set matches a softer kind of player.

M.Balla wrote:If you say that all Euros (except Turiaf) are soft then KG is soft, and yes, 80% of the league is soft.

You set the standard very high, pal.

The reason as I said before, that european players, maybe, are softer overall, is probably because the basketball overseas is more fundamentally sound, and nearly everybody can shoot the rock, pass well and put it on the floor. And usually that skill set matches a softer kind of player.

IMO This influx of "highly skilled" Euros is ruining the NBA.

I'm not talking about "high skill levels", I'm talking about a "skill set that includes shooting, passing and dribbling over athleticism, strength, slashing" that induces a softer style. Then some people like Dirk are highly skilled, and some scrubs are poor skilled.

Another good reason is the lesser strength of the european player overall, especially with the afroamerican player. Genetics.

And the thing about the Euros ruining the NBA, like you said, it's your opinion so I'm okay with that, I don't have nothing to say. IMO it's not so bad as you picture it, but I don't like it too

I don't think that European players are soft I just think that they aren't strong enough to compete with stronger American Athletes. Add Z to the soft category he is a 7 3 center that is a jump shooter.

I think it is the way they are brought up in their country.

If you also notice, most foreigners have great intangibles. They are usually great passers, good at dribbling, etc. (even most of the bigs)... Maybe just something that comes with being finesse.

Or really it could be the only way they've found that works against stronger, faster players.

Why isn't this thread locked ?

It is clearly racially motivated with no intention of a neutral and objective discussion.

Maybe I should open a thread called "Why are all black players rapists, stoners or thugs ?" and see how long it will take til it is locked.