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I was looking at what Rondo did this year and I'm trying to remember the last championship team that had a true 'pass first' point guard starting for them.

2008- Rajon Rondo ( "pass fist pg')
2007- Tony Parker
2006- Jason Williams
2005- Tony Parker
2004- Chauncey Billups
2003- Tony Parker
2002- Derek Fisher
2001- Derek Fisher
2000- Ron Harper
1999- Avery Johnson (Last "Pass First pg" till this year ?)
1998- Ron Harper
1997- Ron Harper
1996- Ron Harper
1995- Kenny Smith
1994- Kenny Smith
1993- BJ Armstrong
1992- John Paxson
1991- John Paxson
1990- Isiah Thomas
1989- Isiah Thomas
1988- Magic Johnson ( "pass fist pg')


So by my count i got 3 'pass first' point guards in the last TWENTY YEARS to be on a championship team (assuming you consider isiah thomas a scoring pg, is there debate about that?)

First off, why did it take so long?

Second, so what does this say about pass first point guards, are they overrated with regards to who has won it all with them, and are they as important as once thought?

what are you thoughts

Most of those teams haven't had great pass first point guards, but then again most of those point guards weren''t very selfish. Also besides Parker, Billups, and Thomas, you didn't have great PGs, more of role players really. So while they didn''t get the stats of a great pass first PG, they got the job done, or perhaps weren't too essential to the mix.

Also defense to me makes championships, pass frst guards make GREAT offense. I mean the Jazz have had the best offenses for basically the last 20 years, thanks to Stockton and Williams. I know Williams isn't your typical pass only guard since he racks up tons of points, but those usually come in the second half, he is a pass first PG for the majority of the game. Anyways, the Jazz suffer of a tremendous lack of interior defense, and still they've gone pretty far the last two playoffs.

I'd also say that Thomas was a borderline pass first PG. I mean his career averages of 19.2ppg and 9.3apg look very much like Deron Williams numbers last year, and I'd definitely say WIlliams is pass first.

Ummm..All those PGs passed the ball very well and played their role on the team. The only exception is that Rondo passed the ball more cause he was sure as hell scared to shoot it.

He can't shoot for , of course he is going to be a pass first point guard.

So Billups and Fisher weren't pass first?

Rondo is 'pass first' point guard because he has no offensive game outside of the paint.

It just shows that you can win without a great pg. Most pgs on championship teams in have been role-players like Rondo. There have been 3 exceptions to this since 1990, in 2004, 2005, and 2007. I'd say its a trend. As much hype as point guards get, they are rarely the foundation for championships.

LakerFanMan wrote:So Billups and Fisher weren't pass first?

I didn't say that, there is a reason why i put the phrase pass first in quotation marks, because it's the idea that they are more passing oriented than scoring but it does not necessarily mean they are not good at passing or do not pass first on some nights, it's just a phrase to generalize certain point guards.

In the two player you mentioned, yes they are more scoring oriented than passing meaning scoring is their greater strength, but that does not mean they do not pass the ball.

I think "pass first" point gaurd is overrated. Or that term is anyways. The game changes and point guards that have the ability to score are more valuable imo than point guards who cant score and are therefore pass first point guards. i know jkidd is a top point guard, but dwill and cp3 are players who possess both abilities and i would value more than kidd

magicfan4life05 wrote:1993- BJ Armstrong
1992- BJ Armstrong
1991- BJ Armstrong

Armstrong only started for the 93 team. John Paxson was the starting pg for the 91 and 92 teams.

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:

magicfan4life05 wrote:1993- BJ Armstrong
1992- BJ Armstrong
1991- BJ Armstrong

Armstrong only started for the 93 team. John Paxson was the starting pg for the 91 and 92 teams.

thanks, you are correct, i will edit the original post

Even with Paxson, he's still considered a shoot first pg which continues the trend.

Isiah Thomas is probably the only small guard to win the NBA title asclearly its team best player. Which is funny since everyone says point guard is the second most important position on the floor. Magic wasn't a small guard and Billups wasn't clearly the best player on the Pistons.

magicfan4life05 wrote:Even with Paxson, he's still considered a shoot first pg which continues the trend.

But the other part of his offensive role was to move the ball. Just like Fisher.

Ballings7 wrote:

magicfan4life05 wrote:Even with Paxson, he's still considered a shoot first pg which continues the trend.

But the other part of his offensive role was to move the ball. Just like Fisher.

agreed,

but he was mainly on the floor to knock down shots to keep the defense honest for jordan/pippen to operate. Once again, I am not saying he does not pass the ball, but passing was not his forte, shooting/scoring was, he was more of a scoring oriented player as opposed to a player out there to make passing plays. Thus, he's not considered a 'pass first' point guard.

if rondo is pass first, so is tony parker.

BobbySura wrote:if rondo is pass first, so is tony parker.

I definitely respect your opinion, but I don't agree, can you elaborate?

Rondo during the course of the season and the playoffs, rarely looked for his shot during the game, and was evidenced by his assist/points ratio.

Tony Parker looks for his shot, pretty much all game long, it's only when his shot isnt falling or some other reason he looks to set up others. (that's not a bad thing necessarily, that's what makes the spurs go)

The entire spurs offense is predicated on Tony Parker's dribble penetration, and he usually converts layups from that. That's his primary goal on offense, which is to get in the paint. His secondary goal is to penetrate, and when he attracts double teams, he then kicks it out to open shooters like bowen, manu, horry, barry. Finally, when he cannot get in the paint, he looks to make the defense pay by screen and roll jumpshots which he is very very good at.

So Parker starts off the game trying to score and then shifts gears if need be, while Rondo will start out of the game looking to dish to his all-star teammates and then when the defense completely ignores him and leave him wide open because they are so concerned with his teammates, he then tries to scores.

Both point guards are extremely effective in what they do, and is why they make their team's offense the way it is.

However, they are totally difference games IMO.

magicfan4life05 wrote:but he was mainly on the floor to knock down shots to keep the defense honest for jordan/pippen to operate. Once again, I am not saying he does not pass the ball, but passing was not his forte, shooting/scoring was, he was more of a scoring oriented player as opposed to a player out there to make passing plays. Thus, he's not considered a 'pass first' point guard.

No, they weren't skilled passing, facilitating players. I was just pointing out they're not pure shoot-first guards, in that they when they didn't have an open shot, or saw a better shot (open themselves or not so much), they'd pass and move the ball. That being a consistent and significant part of their offensive role, also.

Ballings7 wrote:

magicfan4life05 wrote:but he was mainly on the floor to knock down shots to keep the defense honest for jordan/pippen to operate. Once again, I am not saying he does not pass the ball, but passing was not his forte, shooting/scoring was, he was more of a scoring oriented player as opposed to a player out there to make passing plays. Thus, he's not considered a 'pass first' point guard.

No, they weren't skilled passing, facilitating players. I was just pointing out they're not pure shoot-first guards, in that they when they didn't have an open shot, or saw a better shot, they'd pass and move the ball. That being a consistent and significant part of their offensive role, also.

I see, good points also, you're right they were not pure shoot-first guards, more like combo guards who did what you mentioned.

Since you're a spurs fan and watch them regularly, what do you think of the comments about Rondo and Parkers' games?

They are definitely different.

Parker will look to score more than he passes, but has improved his facilitating ability in the last year. Where he does it more and is more consistent.

Rondo is a pass-first guy, who will pick his scoring spots. He also still has to develop more offensively.

for some reason, sometime into the end of the 1st quarter of game 6,

Rondo Had the MOST shots on the CELTICS.... i guess the basket is a teammate cuz he was dishing dimes like no tommorrow