Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto?

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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#41 » by tsherkin » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:45 pm

tracey_nice wrote:have you seen the Raptors draft history? I say do it, they'll probably just draft some useless scrub anyway.


Yes but our draft history only includes one year from Bryan Colangelo, so this sentiment is unfounded.


Schadenfreude wrote:And tsherkin, I disagree that the 17th pick is the difference between a landslide victory for either party. Mid-round picks are, at the best of times, a feast-or-famine proposition, and this draft is one of the ugliest in years. There might be two or three difference-makers available beyond the lottery, if that. Cost-controlled role players are always useful, but hardly worth killing a deal over.


Hold on...

Infusion of young talent with potential

vs.

Old, broken down guy who was never a particularly noteworthy offensive weapon and who MIGHT be able to play 30+ mpg for a significant number of games while defending and rebounding.

Let's see... *weighs with hands*

JO isn't really worth it. It's been 5 years since he played 70 games (though in fairness, he managed 69 two years ago... but he's also played under 50 games twice) and he's terribly inefficient for a big man. He's hit league average or near to it in TS% exactly three times since he's been in Indiana (52%+, it's 53% or so nowadays). His rebounding rate has gone down noticeably, his turnovers are back up to Portland-era numbers, he's had an offensive rating under 100 points per possession in consecutive years now (which is godawful).

There's value in his contract but we can do better than pay %$20M+ for consecutive seasons before trying to move his contract.

This is a move that wouldn't pay dividends until and unless we moved him as he expired and then only if the deal we got for him was particularly good... and since an expiring isn't enough to acquire a good player, we'd have to move him in conjunction with something else ANYWAY... which puts too many variables on the potential for this move to be successful.

I'd rather take a stab at a contributing player with a mid-round pick.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#42 » by WesWesley » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:02 pm

tsherkin wrote:
This is a move that wouldn't pay dividends until and unless we moved him as he expired and then only if the deal we got for him was particularly good... and since an expiring isn't enough to acquire a good player, we'd have to move him in conjunction with something else ANYWAY... which puts too many variables on the potential for this move to be successful.

I'd rather take a stab at a contributing player with a mid-round pick.


I think it is with the way the current CBA is constructed.

Look at this year, with Kwame's contract being traded for Pau Gasol. In fact the Grizzlies turned down the better player in Lamar Odom just so they could have the cap relief. I understand that it's a right place right time type situation, but having a contract of 20 mil coming off the books can be very enticing to a lot of teams looking to start a new foundation.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#43 » by tsherkin » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:16 pm

Wes_Wesley wrote:I think it is with the way the current CBA is constructed.

Look at this year, with Kwame's contract being traded for Pau Gasol. In fact the Grizzlies turned down the better player in Lamar Odom just so they could have the cap relief. I understand that it's a right place right time type situation, but having a contract of 20 mil coming off the books can be very enticing to a lot of teams looking to start a new foundation.


But Kwame wasn't traded in isolation; they also gave up Javaris Crittenton ('07 1st rounder) and 2 other first round picks. The contract itself may have been the core of the deal but it did not suffice to close the deal of its own accord.

And Michael Heisley and Chris Wallace were out of their freaking minds for pulling that deal.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#44 » by Harold_and_Kumar » Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:56 pm

I don't see the huge problem with not including the 17th, chances are, you're not going to get a starter anyways.

Secondly, with JO coming to Toronto, let's assume that he plays terrible and is injured for the two years. Many of you calling for the young infusion of talent will get it, because we will not be a very good team, and will have high picks if JO barely plays. Furthermore, his contract lasts two years, then you have a $20+ expiring and can build your team all over.

Now, let's assume that JO plays well in Toronto and completely revamps his career. You have the perfect frontcourt mate for Chris Bosh, and JO will only be 31 at the end of the contract. At the end of the contract you can try and re-sign him or let him walk and go in a different direction. While during the 2 years, competing in the generally weak east.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#45 » by WesWesley » Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:05 pm

tsherkin wrote:
Wes_Wesley wrote:I think it is with the way the current CBA is constructed.

Look at this year, with Kwame's contract being traded for Pau Gasol. In fact the Grizzlies turned down the better player in Lamar Odom just so they could have the cap relief. I understand that it's a right place right time type situation, but having a contract of 20 mil coming off the books can be very enticing to a lot of teams looking to start a new foundation.


But Kwame wasn't traded in isolation; they also gave up Javaris Crittenton ('07 1st rounder) and 2 other first round picks. The contract itself may have been the core of the deal but it did not suffice to close the deal of its own accord.

And Michael Heisley and Chris Wallace were out of their freaking minds for pulling that deal.


Yes but those picks were there mainly to make the trade work, along with Aaron McKie. That's not the point though because those picks are pretty much going to be late first round picks, which are good to get rid of because it's a guaranteed contract, and you're not necessarily going to have a role player from drafting that late.

I think the point is that having an expiring contract can net you great value if you play it right. JO will make 23 mil in his final season. That is a very attractive contract from a financial perspective; which is ultimately what teams take into consideration when starting to rebuild.

Now this is not to say that I want to trade an up and coming star PG, a solid and smart veteran who is expiring himself, and mid first round pick for a player who has steadily been declining and has struggled to maintain his health for numerous seasons. What makes me think that he's going to round back into form? Historically it's very rare that a player's performance declines due to injuries that he suddenly comes back into form.

The only reason I wouldn't be that mad if this trade went through was because I realize that O'Neal will expire after next season, which means we would only really have to put up with him for a year and a half at the most (assuming we dealt him at the 2010 [yikes can't believe that's so close :( ] trade deadline.)

I really think that Ford and O'Neal's injury situations are different. Ford's body is in great shape. He doesn't have any nagging injuries to speak of, and he's been relatively healthy, other than when he was hit on the head. The difference between the two, is that Ford is going to have to smack his head hard off the court again in order to end his career. Onea'l can slip on some Gatorade and end his career.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#46 » by tsherkin » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:16 pm

Wes_Wesley wrote:Yes but those picks were there mainly to make the trade work, along with Aaron McKie. That's not the point though because those picks are pretty much going to be late first round picks, which are good to get rid of because it's a guaranteed contract, and you're not necessarily going to have a role player from drafting that late.


That's a freaking expensive deal, even if you're the Lakers and expect to have end-of-round picks. Crittenton still has noteworthy potential and there's value to be had at the end of the first round. That was a cost-saving move in a specific scenario that cannot be used to extrapolate unless you assume another such advantageous opportunity for the Raptors.

I think the point is that having an expiring contract can net you great value if you play it right. JO will make 23 mil in his final season. That is a very attractive contract from a financial perspective; which is ultimately what teams take into consideration when starting to rebuild.


Oh Hell yeah, the contract will have value. But we can still move Ford and Rasho for something else, keep our pick and still extract that value without ceding the potential of whatever player we select in the draft, so it kind of invalidates the value of acquiring JO's contract. Why wait two years for the potential to turn a good deal when we could move Ford for something else, select a player and double-dip?

I really think that Ford and O'Neal's injury situations are different. Ford's body is in great shape. He doesn't have any nagging injuries to speak of, and he's been relatively healthy, other than when he was hit on the head. The difference between the two, is that Ford is going to have to smack his head hard off the court again in order to end his career. Onea'l can slip on some Gatorade and end his career.


Yes, Ford's in much better shape than O'neal. O'neal doesn't have to slip on anything, his body is breaking down of its own accord because he put on too much muscle and because he's frail from so much repeated injury. His only value is as a tradeable asset in a year and a half. I'd rather not wait that long for the potential to improve. We basically stay a treadmill team until we try to swing a deal for him that probably won't net us sufficient value.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#47 » by The Main Event » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:00 pm

Forget JO, raps need to go after Josh Howard asap!!!!!!!!
Mavs need a solid back up pg to kidd and Rasho would fill the void that Diop left as a nice back up to Dampier!
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#48 » by LakersSquad » Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:35 pm

JO & Bosh would be kind of like that LO & Gasol front line.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#49 » by Schad » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:16 pm

tsherkin wrote:
JO isn't really worth it. It's been 5 years since he played 70 games (though in fairness, he managed 69 two years ago... but he's also played under 50 games twice) and he's terribly inefficient for a big man. He's hit league average or near to it in TS% exactly three times since he's been in Indiana (52%+, it's 53% or so nowadays). His rebounding rate has gone down noticeably, his turnovers are back up to Portland-era numbers, he's had an offensive rating under 100 points per possession in consecutive years now (which is godawful).


As I said, I'm not excited about the deal, and the Raptors absolutely need some young role players. I just can't get behind the notion that a mid-round pick in this draft is particularly valuable...if Ford/Rasho for O'Neal is a great deal (as you said), they certainly can afford to throw in 17 (maybe with 42 coming back to fill out the roster).
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#50 » by tsherkin » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:14 am

Schadenfreude wrote:
As I said, I'm not excited about the deal, and the Raptors absolutely need some young role players. I just can't get behind the notion that a mid-round pick in this draft is particularly valuable...if Ford/Rasho for O'Neal is a great deal (as you said), they certainly can afford to throw in 17 (maybe with 42 coming back to fill out the roster).


I'm more confident in acquiring something NOW with Ford and Rasho than in waiting a year and a half to parlay JO and whatever else required to make the deal work for something of questionable value. The expiring has value but we'll be banking on someone useful being available only for an expiring, which usually means damaged goods of some kind.

And I disagree that throwing in our pick is a good idea; I think it's (Please Use More Appropriate Word) of us to mortage the infusion of young talent to develop on our roster in an effort to MAYBE turn JO into something useful down the road.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#51 » by AgEnT50 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:35 am

dcash4 wrote:rasho will have a better season than JO.


:nod:
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#52 » by tsherkin » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:57 am

He might, at that. JO will have trouble staying on the floor long enough to significantly impact a game.

That said, it's clear that JO is actually a better player than Rasho, this is not debatable. He's more athletic, he's a better help defender, he's a better defensive rebounder and when he's playing intelligently, he's a better scorer (though not so much so that I'd want him taking more than a dozen shots a game).

If JO is reasonably healthy, then Rasho will not likely have a better season in terms of overall contribution to his team.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#53 » by gojoorange » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:48 am

TJ Ford seems to be really underrated. I bet he would thrive in Indiana given the right opportunity.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#54 » by slamdunk » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:02 am

Is Jermaine O'Neal still a 20ppg player? Or is he a washed up former all-star like Steve Francis or Shareef Abdur-Rahim.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#55 » by tsherkin » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:13 am

He's definitely not a 20 ppg player anymore. Hasn't been in three years, even when he played 69 games.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#56 » by The Boshpit! » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:20 pm

By getting O'Neal I don't think we are expecting
20 ppg although it would be nice. We have Bosh who can
take most of the frontcourt scoring load.
What we want from O'Neal is interior defence and rebounding to help Bosh out.
If we were to get O'Neal I would be happy with 14 ppg 8-9 rpg and 2 bpg in about 30 mins. and hopefully 65+ games.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#57 » by 5DOM » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 pm

O’Neal nearing trade to Toronto for Ford
By Adrian Wojnarowski, Yahoo! Sports


NEW YORK – After on-and-off again negotiations, the Indiana Pacers are close to an agreement to send six-time All-Star Jermaine O’Neal to the Toronto Raptors for point guard T.J. Ford and the 17th pick in Thursday’s NBA draft, a league executive said Wednesday.

After nearly completing the deal earlier in the week, Pacers and Raptors officials needed to exchange more medical information on O’Neal’s left knee and Ford’s neck before finding a comfort level with the trade. It is believed both sides now are comfortable making the deal, and barring a last-minute change of heart, it’s expected to be completed within hours.


Toronto also will send Rasho Nesterovic and another role player to match up with O’Neal’s salary. O’Neal is owed $44 million over the next two seasons. He played just 42 games for Indiana a year ago with a left knee injury. O’Neal has expressed a desire to leave the Pacers for a contender.

Ford, who has a history of neck injuries, became expendable when Toronto GM Bryan Colangelo decided that he wanted to make Jose Calderon the franchise’s future at point guard.


The Pacers would now hold the 11th and 17th picks in the draft.


http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... &type=lgns
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#58 » by RoyceDa59 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:26 pm

Bryan Colangelo always seems to be the first GM to make a big move every off season. It was expensive and gave up some valuable assets (Ford and a 1st rounder) but Jermaine O'Neal, if anything and health issues aside, is the perfect compliment to Bosh up front and fills the biggest need for the Raptors which is a big man who can rebound, defend and score in the paint. I expect 14 / 9 / 2 / 46% in 72 games for the Raps next season. I cant think up a scenario that would have landed Toronto a better big man this year so in the end, I think it was a good move. Ford has serious health issues and never really showed that he can play at a consistant level. The odds of that pick turning out to be anything more than a quality roll player is rare, so in the end BC took a risk on a guy that could put the Raps into the 2nd round, but didnt risk too much of the teams future in the process.

I rate this trade as a B+.
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Re: Jermaine O'Neal to Toronto? 

Post#59 » by Blame Rasho » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:40 pm

I wonder if this gets done before the draft, if so it would allow the Pacers to move up even more with two picks.

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