I just don't see this window closing as soon as people think

[OneBadMutha]

There's been a lot of angst, panic, and just plain ole anger amongst Pistons fans this summer. It's understandable of course since the Pistons seemed to have wasted many opportunities...especially in the Flip era. While it doesn't give the players a free pass, I would like to put a major emphasis on "Flip Saunders era". But the Flip Saunders era is another topic.

On the topic of the Pistons, I do agree and I was happy with the fact that Dumars was shopping everybody. For no other reason, this mix is a bit tired. I don't even think it's going out on a limb to say that making a trade just for the sake of making a trade could help this team in the long run because they just need a bucket of cold water thrown on them, a b!tch slap, (or any other analogy that refers to waking them up and making them alert again). Bottom line is that it's a very sleepy group.

That said, Dumars is right to be patient on this. This is not a Phoenix Suns or Dallas Mavs situation where the ship is sailing for good. The Pistons may or may not be able to contend with the same names, a more experienced young core, and a coach who actually wants to use the defensive players. Even if the coaching philosphies and further developed youth aren't enough, it's not like this squad has got one or two years before turning into a lottery team the way those Kings, Pacers, Heat, and Blazers teams did.

Breaking down this roster...

Of the useful portion of their roster, only Chauncy, Sheed, and Dice are on the downsides of their careers. That's the PF and PG positions.

The Pistons best prospects happen to play PG and PF. While Amir and Maxiell may not have the upside to replace the Sheed/Dice combo of 2005 or the Sheed/Memo combo of 2004 -- I do believe they have the upside to be on par with or better than what Detroit has recieved from Sheed/Dice during the Saunders era. While Stuckey still needs some development in transitioning from combo guard to point guard, he does appear to have a lot more upside than Chauncy.

Rip and Tay are vets but they aren't old. Not only are they not old, their styles won't necessarily age quickly. I use Reggie Miller as a sample piece for Rip. He doesn't take a beating like slashers do and keeps himself in very good physical condition. Tay's game relies very little on athletic ability. When these guys do hit their mid 30's, the amount of minutes they can play will likely decrease. On that note, Afflalo has potential as a very good role player and provides Rip and Tay a back-up that neither have had for a few years.

That moves us on to center. The past few years have consisted of Detroit using a Ben Wallace who was slowly having his role reduced, then Nazr, then Webber, and then 2 PF's starting. There are very few good to great traditional centers in the NBA these days. Right now, only Howard, Ming, Bynum, and Oden look like they'll be forces for years to come. The rest are PF's or role players. Boston won with a big body role player. With the new NBA rules, you don't need that dominant center anymore. You only need players who can play respectable defense against the handful of big time centers there are. Right now Detroit is taking a chance on Kwame and have a prospect with potential in Samb. Neither of those guys need to be All Stars. One or both just have to develop into reliable defenders and scrape up about 10 p.p.g.

Going forward, I actually like the mix of the young guys with Rip and Tay over the mix of Chauncy and Sheed with Rip and Tay. Stuckey, Amir, Maxiell, and Afflalo will all run. Rip and Tay can run but don't due to limitations of Chauncy. Stuckey is a pure slasher and will bully his way inside. That's a better compliment to a jump shooter and glue guy on the perimeter compared to Chauncy who's just another jump shooter. Amir and Maxiell have the mobility to defend pick and rolls, provide energy, and get garbage baskets. That's a better compliment to the Pistons jump shooters than Sheed and Dice, who are both jump shooters who've lost their abilities to defend the pick and rolls.

If the Pistons stayed status quo for the next few years and let Chauncy, Sheed, and Dice fade out of the rotation or plans, the Pistons would still have a good team and I'd argue that in two years, they'd be better than they were last year once Stuckey, Amir, Maxiell, and Afflalo reached veteran status. The only weakness I see on this team once the youth becomes experienced is an offensive post presence. Obviously it isn't available right now for the right price or we'd have seen a move. But time can change things. A Boozer type of aquisition or development of an offensive low post game in house (from one of the young bigs) re-opens Detroit's window of contention all over again.

Bottom line is that we aren't even close to having to make panic moves. With one good move that pays off long term, this team is back at the top. No need for Dumars to pull off a move that sets them back long term by being hasty.

[ilikepistonslol]

Unless people miraculously get hurt this team isn't going to fall into mediocrity anytime soon. but i still think that the championship window with this team AS IS is kinda closed. we're still relying on Dice, we know Max's limitations, and Amir is still a question mark that makes better trade bait than a championship piece. Rip will peak soon, and Tay peaked when Ben left. they still need a push to get over the top, one that IMO has to be achieved by a trade.

Good centers just don't fall out of the sky, but I think we can definitely do better than Tayshaun.

[Texas Longhorns]

I'm not gonna lie, I think the Cavs have a better shot at the championship than you guys.

[Bucky O'Hare]

The Piston's championship window began closing when they replaced the great Larry Brown with mediocre Flip Saunders. It was finally slammed shut for good when Ben Wallace left town, leaving them with a lousy center rotation.

[OneBadMutha]

The Piston's championship window began closing when they replaced the great Larry Brown with mediocre Flip Saunders. It was finally slammed shut for good when Ben Wallace left town, leaving them with a lousy center rotation.

I agree with you there...in terms of the past three years. I'm a Pistons fan who realized that the Pistons were a Paper Tiger about 3/4ths of the way thru Flip's first season when I realized that they were a jump shooting team and no longer defended the paint well despite having Ben and Sheed. I was depressed when Flip wasn't fired after season 2 for under-achieving when the two previous coaches were fired after 2 seasons after over-achieving.

I don't believe the general NBA fan or even most Pistons fans realized how much Flip Saunders impacted this team in a negative way. It would take me too much time to break it down but a summary is that his philosophies and his preferred players just don't match up to winning playoff basketball and they didn't match up to much of the roster. Ben was being run out of town when he was still an impact defender. In fact, Flip spoke to the media shortly after Ben left and glowed about how this team would be better because he could run his full playbook. I was done with Flip Saunders for good when I heard that.

With that said, a lot of their assets have been under-utilized the past two years. Obsessive Pistons fans like myself know that Afflalo was this team's best defender in terms of containing wing players on the perimeter, that Maxiell was Detroit's best big man pick and roll defender, and that Amir was Detroit's best big man help defender. Yet Detroit lost three years in a row because they couldn't contain athletes on the perimeter, couldn't challenge shots inside or defend the paint, and they got destroyed on the pick and roll. Those guys sat in favor of washed up big men (Dale Davis, Webber, Ratliff) who Flip didn't have to coach, small ball (like playing Walter Herman at the 4), or shot chuckers who couldn't defend (like Jarvis Hayes).

I won't break it down further but I do feel that even a mediocre X's and O's coach who values defense and uses defensive players (instead of insisting on positions 1 thru 4 always having good jump shooters regardless of what's killing the the team) is going to get more out of this roster and will have more playoff success than Flip Saunders had.

If you haven't figure it out yet, I believe Flip Saunders led to a regression of this team and was allowed to waste everybody's time because Davidson liked him more as a person than other successful coaches he had. I believe this team still has the pieces to move forward again instead of continuing to lose their identity and be pretenders.

[Prolific Scorer]

Lousy Center rotation? I'd take Maxiel , Sheed and a somewhat healthy Theo Ratliff anyday.

[ilikepistonslol]

Cleveland still has a ridiculously bad offense outside of James (thank Mike Brown for that), and when Z tires they are completely relying on Bron.

Maxiell is 6'7 at most, and Ratliff was AWFUL when in mattered. We're in DIRE need of a center

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

I never really liked Detroit after the 04-05 seasons, they had a cockiness and swagger that said "We'll win no matter what happens" Kind of like those U.S. Teams that went to the Olympics and came home goldless. And that rubbed on me the wrong way. It wasn't the style of play of the Pistons. If you don't appreciate defense of the 04-05 Pistons (7 opponents held under 70? WTF, that was wicked), you don't appreciate basketball. I hated their arrogance after winning the title.

And of course, Flip Saunders. Whose regular season success never leads to NBA Playoff victories let alone a title. Flip Saunders may have improved that offense, but he shot that defense down the drain. The Pistons did a good job in drafting Maxiell and Stuckey. Two guys who will contribute down the line. But giving up Darko Milicic was stupid.(Even more stupid was Flip Saunders not using him). You guys had Ben's bird rights right? So there's no need to increase the cap. The Pistons just flat out got rid of Ben's potential replacment for nothing. I suggest you rebulid around your youth and blow up this starting lineup for more youth. Without that second shot blocker next to Rasheed Wallace, your lineup is just a playoff team.

[NO-KG-AI]

All the people who followed Minnesota warned everyone about Flip... We told you so

[7r5ur]

The Pistons did a good job in drafting Maxiell and Stuckey. Two guys who will contribute down the line. But giving up Darko Milicic was stupid.(Even more stupid was Flip Saunders not using him). You guys had Ben's bird rights right? So there's no need to increase the cap. The Pistons just flat out got rid of Ben's potential replacment for nothing.

You're contradicting yourself here. We got the pick that turned into Stuckey in the Darko deal. I will take that every single day of the week.

Without that second shot blocker next to Rasheed Wallace, your lineup is just a playoff team.

Maxiell is a good shotblocker. Amir Johnson is one of the best in the league (1.3bpg in only 12mpg).

Flip didn't always utilize these players fully (mostly Amir), but there isn't a lack of shotblocking talent on the roster.

[Prospect Dong]

This makes three times in a row the pistons have gotten rid of a pretty good coach and explained to the general board that now all their problems are over. Back when Larry Brown was taking you to the finals you were all critiquing his decisions and explaining that players control the defence, not the coach. Back when Rick Carlisle was doing more with less you had him down as a regular season coach who got out-manoeuvred in the playoffs.

The same goes for the "our currently young guys won't ever slow down" stuff, which was being said about Ben and Sheed just over two years ago: Ben won't slow down because he keeps himself in great shape, and Sheed won't age because he has his jumper to fall back on. Generally speaking, players get worse once they get past 28, and while some guys break that rule from time to time, I'd say a guy like Tay Prince is a pretty poor candidate.

That leaves the guys on the bench, who you hope will be comparable to championship era Sheed, Ben and Chauncey just as soon as the mean coach gives them minutes... Prime Chauncey was, according to me and according to many of you, an MVP candidate. How many teams have one of those buried on their bench? Hell, it wasn't so long ago that Delfino and Darko were those guys for you.

The pistons are the kind of veteran team who are always a threat to pull an upset over a "more talented" young team. Dumars is top-3 among active GM's. They've got a ring and a bunch of deep playoff runs to be proud of. But, barring a big shake up, they've got maybe one more season of legit contention.

[7r5ur]

The pistons are the kind of veteran team who are always a threat to pull an upset over a "more talented" young team.

Which teams are you talking about here?

I'm trying to think of the last time the Pistons weren't favored against a "young" team. Or are we considering Boston and San Antonio young now? Maybe Miami in '05 was favored as well, though they weren't exactly young either.

As for the rest of your post. You're generalizing the opinions of many Pistons fans regarding the revolving door coach situation. Look at the individual changes...

Carlisle to Larry Brown: Fairly easy decision. HOF coach is a no-brainer.
Larry Brown to Flip: Obviously there was a lot more to this than what was happening on the court. Most Pistons fans were worried about this one, regardless of how Pistons' brass tried to spin it (Add Offense to Geat D! blah..). It worked for a couple months, then Flip couldn't hold it together.

Honestly, I have no expectation with Michael Curry. I know that a change from Flip's lax, offense-first style will be a welcome one. Will they win a lot more games this year? Probably not. Are they going to fall off the map all of a sudden as people like to predict every year? No. I'm pretty sure that's all this thread is about.

[Prospect Dong]

The "more talented team" comment refers to the future, not the past. You know, like this thread. I'm predicting, and it seems you're agreeing, that the talent level is going to drop off a little over the next few years, but I'm saying that a veteran team can sometime upset a team with more talent than them. I'd have thought that was pretty uncontroversial.

Larry Brown to Flip: Obviously there was a lot more to this than what was happening on the court. Most Pistons fans were worried about this one, regardless of how Pistons' brass tried to spin it (Add Offense to Geat D! blah..). It worked for a couple months, then Flip couldn't hold it together.

This is the second time in a month you've tried to deflect onto others views which you, personally expressed a the time. If I had the impression that Piston's fans were glad to see the back of their HOF coach it was because guys like you and Cow were on the general board celebrating improved offence and no drop off in defence, because defence is always all about the players.

Bottom line, the pistons have had three above-average, probably top-10 coaches in a row, and they've run each of them out of town to the tune of "more-wins-next-year-because-our-young-guys-will-play". I can't think of a fan base with less to complain about as far as coaching goes, or less reason to hope for improvement.

Are they going to fall off the map all of a sudden as people like to predict every year? No

Now who's generalising? I don't think anyone's predicting missed playoffs this season and I, personally, am predicting a championship contender. This thread is about a long window for contention and I disagree. The pistons have gotten a little worse since their championship, and I don't see any reason that gradual downward slide should stop unless Dumars pulls off something huge. You seem to agree.

[Derekman]

There's to many teams better than the Pistons now. The Cavs and Celtics have proven to be better in a 7 game series. Out West, teams like LAkers,Spurs,Hornets and Rockets will have their way with them. The championship window has closed. I don't think, barring any injuries to the Cavs and Celts, that they can come out of the East.

[boomann21]

When ever they decide to not make the ECF I will say their window is closed but as long as they make going to the ECF an annual thing you have to say the window is still open. Joe Dumars has made a prepetually good team. Other then Ben Wallace bailing out this team has kept it's core intact for more years then most teams do other then the Spurs. And the way Joe Dumars finds these youngins at the bottom of drafts to fill in like Stucky, Maxiell, Prince and now Walter Sharpe you can expect they will be good for years to come. Joe Dumars makes himself look like a genius on a yearly basis.

[celticfan42487]

They are good enough to win a championship next year.

Their one big weakness is a strong slashing SF. Pierce is a great one. LeBron is re-writing dreams on how to play that role. And Caron Bulter is a very good offensive one along with just fantastic defense.. if needed in a 7 game series he could adjust his role and do what Pierce did last year.

In the West however.. I'm not sure there is another strong SF slasher on a contender to mess them up defensively.

And DET isn't any more of a jump shot reliant team then BOS or LA. All 3 of the veterant teams don't have a consistent offense that will draw fouls or low post inspired play.

DET's biggest strength is their greatest weakness in that they no longer feel the butterflies when they are on the big stage.

 And a lot of the times they just assume the other team will fail while feeling them. Though it also sometimes just comes down to some hot 3 point shooting and winning the 50/50 balls.

Kwame will help them a lot against teams that have big Center and can grab the rebounding advantage ( See Perkins, Kendrick getting 16 rebound game)

[Razzputin]

Yeah,

I think rumors of Detroit's demise are greatly exaggerated.

They still had the second best record in the league last year and lost to the future NBA champs. You can basically count on them winning around 55 games and a couple playoff rounds next year. If things come together, they have a decent shot at the championship.

I would put their chances fourth behind Boston, LA, and SA.