David Lee

Moderators: Prez, Yuri Vaultin, ken6199, Dirk, Domejandro, bwgood77, zimpy27, BombsquadSammy, GeorgeMarcus, PockyCandy

User avatar
Awoooga
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,958
And1: 9
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: 1994, 1999, 2010???

Re: David Lee 

Post#61 » by Awoooga » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:35 pm

You think Lee could bring back a late first rounder? How generous of you. Memphis offered the 5th pick in the draft for Lee last year.
User avatar
method
RealGM
Posts: 11,684
And1: 240
Joined: Dec 27, 2002
Location: KNICK NATION
       

Re: David Lee 

Post#62 » by method » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:49 pm

nate33 wrote:I stand by my assertion that Lee is an average player.
hows does an average player have the most double double since 1995s Patrick Ewing.

That is not an average record to break,dont you agree?
Image
Mahoney_jr
Veteran
Posts: 2,523
And1: 1
Joined: Aug 02, 2004
Location: Germany
 

Re: David Lee 

Post#63 » by Mahoney_jr » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:50 pm

I think Lee would be a star in FIBA ball, where the court is smaller. For the NBA game, his game has too many holes and I believe he'll never be "well-rounded" or "complete". I like players who start, when they are more complete than David Lee is or ever will be.

As he mastered some skills (finishing at the basket with both hands, offensive rebounding), I would like him as the big of the bench for the full MLE. But he offers not enough other skills for a starting job. There are only very few big men who would form a great frontcourt-duo with Lee (Lee & Camby = Playoffs, Lee & Garnett = 2nd Round, Lee & Hawes = who knows? ... that's about it).

That was an argument without use of any stats ;)
User avatar
method
RealGM
Posts: 11,684
And1: 240
Joined: Dec 27, 2002
Location: KNICK NATION
       

Re: David Lee 

Post#64 » by method » Mon Dec 8, 2008 3:54 pm

nate33 wrote:
I think Lee can be traded for a late 1st round pick, or perhaps packaged with Jeffries to get back contracts that expire by 2010.

He was almost traded for a top 5 pick untill he refused to resign with Mem.

He trade value went up just like his numbers.

You know what I have come to the conslusion that you do NOT know a thing about the NBA and I would consider you an average poster,which isnt a bad thing.
Image
NetsForce
Banned User
Posts: 20,711
And1: 24
Joined: Dec 27, 2006

Re: David Lee 

Post#65 » by NetsForce » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:04 pm

I get the feeling that people around the league overvalue Lee, so in all honesty if he gets something like $9-$10 mil a year this offseason I wouldn't be surprised.

Someone is going to overpay Lee and then be kicking themselves in the face when they realize they blew so much money on a role player.
User avatar
andyhop
Veteran
Posts: 2,929
And1: 769
Joined: May 08, 2007
   

Re: David Lee 

Post#66 » by andyhop » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:19 pm

Lee is inflating his raw rebounding numbers because the other Knicks just completely suck at it.His rebounding% is actually the lowest it has been since his rookie season.
"Football is not a matter of life and death...it's much more important than that."- Bill Shankley
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 54,880
And1: 8,926
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: David Lee 

Post#67 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 8, 2008 4:54 pm

Awoooga wrote:You think Lee could bring back a late first rounder? How generous of you. Memphis offered the 5th pick in the draft for Lee last year.

To be fair, the rumor was Lee + Rose for Cardinal + 5th pick. NY was eating $7M in salary in the transaction. Two years ago, Seattle got paid 2 mid round picks to take on $8M in Kurt Thomas' salary, so clearly, the cap relief had much to do with the offer.

But all that aside, Lee had more value last year than he does this year. The summer of 2009 looms closer after every game. The "value" of Lee is that he is so productive relative to his paltry salary of $1.8M. Once he is paid $6M a year, he won't be perceived as so valuable anymore.

I think the Udonis Haslem comparison is appropriate. Haslem is a nice player to have, but he is well-paid for what he provides. That limits his trade value. Nobody is beating down Miami's door to trade for Haslem.
GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX
Banned User
Posts: 1,764
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 25, 2006

Re: David Lee 

Post#68 » by GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX » Mon Dec 8, 2008 5:59 pm

If no one pays Lee more then MLE then the Knicks should just match and giggle on the discount the current economic environment is providing them. If a team finds a 7 mil a year deal for him then the Knicks should match. If a team comes in with a 10 mil a year offer the Knicks should deliberate whether or not its worth it to sign Lee for that amount. If Walsh deems Lee to expensive at 10 mil/year then so be it.

I think a day of thought has me thinking that a 3 year deal for Lee would be best if he wants 10 mil per. This way if he exceeds expectations you may have gotten a deal. If he doesnt perform to the contracts price then the long term tax hole wont be as severe. If he wants a 5-6 year deal then he has to settle for something like 7-8 mil per.

I think the MLE is his basement. Andy Varajeao makes the MLE and he doesnt even start. Lee may not necessarily be a 10 mil year player due to his defensive shortcomings. I think a fair salary for him would be somewhere in the middle.
User avatar
Manhattan Project
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 37,082
And1: 4,955
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Location: The game ain't in me no more. None of it.

Re: David Lee 

Post#69 » by Manhattan Project » Mon Dec 8, 2008 6:32 pm

A couple of things...

- Half the league is setting themselves up for a run at the "2010" Free agency, so what teams are really going to be throwing 9-10 million at Lee? Now im not looking at a list or anything, but what teams actually have cap space to offer him big money this year? Im going to assume most of them will only offer the MLE which the Knicks would gladly match.

- His stats are inflated, there is no denying that. David Lee is a great rebounder, there is no denying that either. Lee is a player right now that is masquerading as a center right now and his weakness is being highlighted. Give him credit though, he is not picking up cheap fouls and hurting us while we have this seven man rotation. Also not to go overlooked, he does cause some matchup problems. Can finish we either hand or just run by you. He is finally looking healthy for the first time this year.

- There is no way Lee gets a lottery pick straight up really, at the end of the day there will be players who can do what he does with minutes.
Utah Jazz
Jokic x Plumlee x Henson
Sabonis x Nance x Beasley
Barnes x Gallinari x Paschall
Crabbe x Bullock x Diallo
Russell x Mills x Jones
:beer:
User avatar
Soul Patch
RealGM
Posts: 21,060
And1: 874
Joined: Jun 16, 2008
Location: I'm at the White Castle
Contact:

Re: David Lee 

Post#70 » by Soul Patch » Mon Dec 8, 2008 6:58 pm

Is Millsap > Lee?
Image
Jugs wrote:Fark orf slet kent dome wuote ujquote exp
User avatar
Manhattan Project
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 37,082
And1: 4,955
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Location: The game ain't in me no more. None of it.

Re: David Lee 

Post#71 » by Manhattan Project » Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:01 pm

Soul Patch wrote:Is Millsap > Lee?


If your looking for D then yeah, if your looking for offense then no. Weigh out the differences and there basically equal in value. Same mold as Jason Maxiell, Udonis Haslem et al.
Utah Jazz
Jokic x Plumlee x Henson
Sabonis x Nance x Beasley
Barnes x Gallinari x Paschall
Crabbe x Bullock x Diallo
Russell x Mills x Jones
:beer:
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 54,880
And1: 8,926
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: David Lee 

Post#72 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:35 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:A couple of things...

- Half the league is setting themselves up for a run at the "2010" Free agency, so what teams are really going to be throwing 9-10 million at Lee? Now im not looking at a list or anything, but what teams actually have cap space to offer him big money this year? Im going to assume most of them will only offer the MLE which the Knicks would gladly match.

Don't be so sure.

In 2010, the Knicks have Curry, Jeffries on the books, and they will probably pick up the options on Gallinari and Chandler just to have cheap role players on the roster. They'll also have their 2009 pick which should cost about $2M. The also have to account for 4 more minimum salary players to fill up the roster, that's $2M more. Already, we're talking about a payroll of about $29.5M. If we assume that the salary cap will be about $60M that year, then they'll have $30.5M in cap room. A max salary free agent like Lebron or Bosh will cost $17M. So as you can see, they don't even have quite enough cap room as it is to sign two max salary free agents unless they agree to play in NY for less.

With that in mind, I don't see the Knicks matching a full MLE salary (which will be roughly $6.4M in 2010) to Lee this summer. It's one thing to ask Bosh to play in New York for $13M a year rather than $17M; it's another thing entirely to expect him to play for just $7M.

Now, if the Knicks manage to dump Jeffries and/or Curry for 2010 contracts, then the calculations change. But for now, I don't see them matching any offer for Lee or Robinson.
User avatar
Manhattan Project
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 37,082
And1: 4,955
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Location: The game ain't in me no more. None of it.

Re: David Lee 

Post#73 » by Manhattan Project » Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:43 pm

nate33 wrote:
Manhattan Project wrote:A couple of things...

- Half the league is setting themselves up for a run at the "2010" Free agency, so what teams are really going to be throwing 9-10 million at Lee? Now im not looking at a list or anything, but what teams actually have cap space to offer him big money this year? Im going to assume most of them will only offer the MLE which the Knicks would gladly match.

Don't be so sure.

In 2010, the Knicks have Curry, Jeffries on the books, and they will probably pick up the options on Gallinari and Chandler just to have cheap role players on the roster. They'll also have their 2009 pick which should cost about $2M. The also have to account for 4 more minimum salary players to fill up the roster, that's $2M more. Already, we're talking about a payroll of about $29.5M. If we assume that the salary cap will be about $60M that year, then they'll have $30.5M in cap room. A max salary free agent like Lebron or Bosh will cost $17M. So as you can see, they don't even have quite enough cap room as it is to sign two max salary free agents unless they agree to play in NY for less.

With that in mind, I don't see the Knicks matching a full MLE salary (which will be roughly $6.4M in 2010) to Lee this summer. It's one thing to ask Bosh to play in New York for $13M a year rather than $17M; it's another thing entirely to expect him to play for just $7M.

Now, if the Knicks manage to dump Jeffries and/or Curry for 2010 contracts, then the calculations change. But for now, I don't see them matching any offer for Lee or Robinson.


Thats certainly a a valid point, but I dont see us getting two max free agents. While it is the general idea I believe, I just dont see being a plausible option. One interesting thing is that Jefferies has a player option for that year, I see no reason for him opting out of it. Eddy Curry is the wildcard in all of this though. He is not going to play at all for the Knicks, he serves no purpose. He is going to make 10 and 11 million in those years, but do you pick them up if your not going to play? We all know he wont get that money anywhere else, we all know he really dont care about basketball. However with him having an option to opt out that does get overlooked. Do you really stick with a team in which you never play? Well considering the economic times, he probably will just swallow his pride and accept both years. He lost his friend in Crawford and is running out of welcome faces here.

Im just saying, him opting out is like praying for two max free agents.
Utah Jazz
Jokic x Plumlee x Henson
Sabonis x Nance x Beasley
Barnes x Gallinari x Paschall
Crabbe x Bullock x Diallo
Russell x Mills x Jones
:beer:
User avatar
nate33
Forum Mod - Wizards
Forum Mod - Wizards
Posts: 54,880
And1: 8,926
Joined: Oct 28, 2002

Re: David Lee 

Post#74 » by nate33 » Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:51 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:Thats certainly a a valid point, but I dont see us getting two max free agents. While it is the general idea I believe, I just dont see being a plausible option.

I'm not sure Lebron would leave a contending team in Cleveland to come play in New York alongside Curry, Jeffries, Lee and Gallinari. Heck, the Knicks won't even have a pick in 2010.

Lebron is going to need some hope that the Knicks can put together a contender around him. The problem is, once he is on the team, the Knicks won't be bad enough to get more lottery picks, and they'll never have cap room again. For the foreseeable future, it'll basically be Lebron and a series of MLE acquisitions. That's the Patrick Ewing story all over again.

The way to be sure Lebron comes to NY is to convince him and another max free agent to sign together. The Knicks aren't going to ruin this possibility just for the sake of keeping David freaking Lee on the roster.
GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX
Banned User
Posts: 1,764
And1: 0
Joined: Jun 25, 2006

Re: David Lee 

Post#75 » by GIVE_WADE_THE_MAX » Mon Dec 8, 2008 7:57 pm

Im already under the assumption that Curry will not opt out of his deal. Like it was speculated he cant recover the money from another team and no sane person would leave that money on the table, especially with his lack of desire to actually play the game.

I have faith in Walsh to get a deal done. All the Knicks really need back is an expiring contract and maybe a second round pick. He's still relatively young and Walsh already deleted close to 30 million in cap space. The 2010 plan is still on to get two or possibly 3 free agents. In Walsh I trust
User avatar
method
RealGM
Posts: 11,684
And1: 240
Joined: Dec 27, 2002
Location: KNICK NATION
       

Re: David Lee 

Post#76 » by method » Mon Dec 8, 2008 8:49 pm

nate33 wrote:To be fair, the rumor was Lee + Rose for Cardinal + 5th pick



LINK...... :thinking:
Image
cucad8
Head Coach
Posts: 6,531
And1: 631
Joined: May 27, 2007

Re: David Lee 

Post#77 » by cucad8 » Mon Dec 8, 2008 8:57 pm

method wrote:
nate33 wrote:To be fair, the rumor was Lee + Rose for Cardinal + 5th pick



LINK...... :thinking:


http://www.prosportsdaily.com/forums/sh ... p?t=236084

I'm sure there are other links. Google it, and a bunch will come up.

Also, who, with cap space this offseason, is realistically going to give Lee 8-10 million dollasr per year in a deal?
User avatar
andyhop
Veteran
Posts: 2,929
And1: 769
Joined: May 08, 2007
   

Re: David Lee 

Post#78 » by andyhop » Tue Dec 9, 2008 1:55 am

Curry isn't going to opt out because he has the perfect deal for himself, he is going to get paid $20m and he doesn't even have to pretend to want to play basketball.
"Football is not a matter of life and death...it's much more important than that."- Bill Shankley
garrick
Analyst
Posts: 3,136
And1: 392
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
     

Re: David Lee 

Post#79 » by garrick » Tue Dec 9, 2008 4:17 am

The reason Lee is picking up all those rebounds is he is the only Legit PF on that team. Now with no Z Randolph to grab his share of the rebounds now they are falling to Lee.

He's a good bench player but no star by all means.
supergallinari
Banned User
Posts: 2,217
And1: 0
Joined: Jul 05, 2008

Re: David Lee 

Post#80 » by supergallinari » Tue Dec 9, 2008 4:27 am

andyhop wrote:Curry isn't going to opt out because he has the perfect deal for himself, he is going to get paid $20m and he doesn't even have to pretend to want to play basketball.


well he would be extremely dumb not to play for a new deal as a 27 yr old 7 ft center

Return to The General Board