Would your team want Jose Calderon?

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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#101 » by everdiso » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:21 am

Calderon is a top-10 PG in the league, and probably close to top-5. He is THE most efficient offensive PG in the league - the stats don't lie - he simply doesn't make bad plays out there. He is always making the smart plays.

As for his defense, it's limited, but the only reason he's looked especially vulnerable this year is because he's had a bad hammy all year. He makes up for his lack of quicks by being a smart help defender with good size.

Some fanboys get all excited seeing TJ running around like a chicken, thinking that he's "making things happen", when really TJ is also awful defensively, and a shot happy shoot-first PG offensively who's not a good enough shooter.

People forget just how good Calderon looked last year when TJ was out, and the Raptors were all on the same page. Once they get it together this year, these kinds of threads will die out pretty quick.

There's just not very many PGs out there that can give you 15/10 every game with great shooting percentages and no turnovers.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#102 » by orl1724 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:25 am

Magic would be happy to take him. If you hate Calderon you would have commited suicide if Jameer Nelson was your starting PG.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#103 » by J-Mezzy » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:39 am

541Blaza wrote:Outlaw, Rodriguez, Frye, and a 2nd for Jose Calderon and Kris Humpries

That's the deal I'd put on the table.

Calderon/Blake/Bayless
Roy/Fernandez
Batum/Webster
Aldrdige/Humphries/Diogu
Oden/Pryzbilla

Blazers Lineup



If I'm Toronto, I'd take it
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#104 » by microfib4thewin » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:29 am

everdiso wrote:Calderon is a top-10 PG in the league, and probably close to top-5. He is THE most efficient offensive PG in the league - the stats don't lie - he simply doesn't make bad plays out there. He is always making the smart plays.

As for his defense, it's limited, but the only reason he's looked especially vulnerable this year is because he's had a bad hammy all year. He makes up for his lack of quicks by being a smart help defender with good size.

Some fanboys get all excited seeing TJ running around like a chicken, thinking that he's "making things happen", when really TJ is also awful defensively, and a shot happy shoot-first PG offensively who's not a good enough shooter.

People forget just how good Calderon looked last year when TJ was out, and the Raptors were all on the same page. Once they get it together this year, these kinds of threads will die out pretty quick.

There's just not very many PGs out there that can give you 15/10 every game with great shooting percentages and no turnovers.


You don't see him make bad plays because his bad plays are not passing to wide open teammates under the basket or run a 4 on 1 fastbreaks. That's how unwilling he is at taking risk. Some people keep saying he's an allstar and aren't that far behind the top PGs of this league, but guys like Nash and Paul always manage to find themselves in the paint, draw defensive attention and make things easier for his teammates. Calderon is incapable of executing transitional offense, and in half court sets all he does is repeat running picks with Bosh, never gets himself in the paint no matter the success of the screen, and he does either one of the following:

1. Shoot behind the pick.
2. Throw it to Bosh if he can't get a good look.
3. Pass it to another shooter when the clock is expiring hoping they can make a shot.

If he's such an efficient PG, why is Toronto ranked 20th in Offensive efficiency? Answer is this, Calderon is not a major scoring threat, so the defense doesn't zone in on him making him easier to make his jumpers, the problem, he doesn't draw double teams, so the other guys have to work harder to make their own shots. Additionally, he can't take over games when the situation is bleak because he is limited in his offensive arsenal. Once his jumpers are off he will have no way of helping the team. He works well within his confined role of initiating the offense and occasionally firing 3s, but he's not going to take a bigger role like Nash who makes the defense work as hard as possible, give his teammates breathing room, and can still go 50/40/90 even if he needs to take 40 shots.

With the right coaching he can certainly take it up to the next level, but Calderon right now doesn't have the presence of a star PG.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#105 » by choomag » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:09 am

microfib4thewin wrote:
With the right coaching he can certainly take it up to the next level, but Calderon right now doesn't have the presence of a star PG.


Because he is a star PG. right?
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#106 » by jgozalb » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:02 am

Is Calderon being paid like an star PG?
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#107 » by everdiso » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:31 pm

microfib4thewin wrote:You don't see him make bad plays because his bad plays are not passing to wide open teammates under the basket or run a 4 on 1 fastbreaks. That's how unwilling he is at taking risk. Some people keep saying he's an allstar and aren't that far behind the top PGs of this league, but guys like Nash and Paul always manage to find themselves in the paint, draw defensive attention and make things easier for his teammates. Calderon is incapable of executing transitional offense, and in half court sets all he does is repeat running picks with Bosh, never gets himself in the paint no matter the success of the screen, and he does either one of the following:

1. Shoot behind the pick.
2. Throw it to Bosh if he can't get a good look.
3. Pass it to another shooter when the clock is expiring hoping they can make a shot.

If he's such an efficient PG, why is Toronto ranked 20th in Offensive efficiency? Answer is this, Calderon is not a major scoring threat, so the defense doesn't zone in on him making him easier to make his jumpers, the problem, he doesn't draw double teams, so the other guys have to work harder to make their own shots. Additionally, he can't take over games when the situation is bleak because he is limited in his offensive arsenal. Once his jumpers are off he will have no way of helping the team. He works well within his confined role of initiating the offense and occasionally firing 3s, but he's not going to take a bigger role like Nash who makes the defense work as hard as possible, give his teammates breathing room, and can still go 50/40/90 even if he needs to take 40 shots.

With the right coaching he can certainly take it up to the next level, but Calderon right now doesn't have the presence of a star PG.


Honestly, this is a large load of BS.

First off, you simply don't rack up 10 assists per game without taking risks. It's impossible. He just takes very smart risks, and has the skills to make those risks end up looking like easy plays. That's what he does best - make tough plays look easy. He almost never committs the cardinal sin of dribbling himself into no-man's land without an out, and he's very good and getting his teammates the ball at the right time in the right place.

Secondly, saying he can't execute in transition is fairly ridiculous. Under Mitchell, the Raps have not been a good transition team, but that has little to do with Calderon - there's no safer feeling than seeing Jose running in transition, because he's the one guy you know will give the ball to the right guy at the right time on the fast break, and not make the silly turnovers that we see so often in that situation.

Thirdly, yes, he plays the pick and roll with Bosh, and the two of them are one of the premier pick-and-roll threats in the entire league. He punishes players for going under the screen by hitting every open jump shot, and can always make the pass through to Bosh if he's covered. He can also turn the corner very well and get to the basket for easy layups consistently. This, again, is a very good quality. The pick and roll is one of the most fundamental and important plays in basketball, and Calderon is one of the very best in the league at it.

Lastly, Calderon, as a pass-first PG, always chooses to get his teammates involved first. He never tries to force his offense, and doesn't try to "take over games" unless it's needed. AQnd yes, he has shown many times capable of taking over games in the end....when other teams think they can cheat off him in the late going, he makes them pay. Consistently.


The fact of the matter is the average NBA fan loves athleticism and fancy dribbling more than solid fundamentals, and this is the only reason why anyone thinks Calderon doesn't have the "presence" of a star PG.

The fact of the matter is, he doesn't have that fan-friendly "presence", but he most certainly has the more important part of the equation - the PERFORMANCE.

You take the style, I'll take the substance.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#108 » by msharpie32 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:42 pm

Thank- you! Finally someone that knows a little something about the game. I can't believe what some of the Toronto fans are saying. The one guy said it best, that we complained about TJ Ford and now we're complaining about Calderon. Collectively as Toronto fans we wanted Jose to get the starting job and TJ gone. We have that now and we're STILL complaining! And some of the people that said we should have kept TJ, I think that idea is ludacris. He simpy outplayed TJ the other night and is continuing to do it on a day to day basis. TJ is apparently not heavily favoured in Indiana either. He has the starting job but Jim O' Brien is a huge fan of Jarett Jack. We should be content with 13 points and 9+ assists a game, and if your not jump the bandwagon of the Suns and Hornets, or better yet sulk on the OKC or Charlotte message boards and see what they say about this. I'm sure they'd take Jose any day.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#109 » by realfung » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:25 pm

anyday
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#110 » by microfib4thewin » Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:54 pm

choomag wrote:
microfib4thewin wrote:
With the right coaching he can certainly take it up to the next level, but Calderon right now doesn't have the presence of a star PG.


Because he is a star PG. right?


A guy who averages 12 points on 10 shot attempts with limited playmaking skill is hardly a star.

jgozalb wrote:Is Calderon being paid like an star PG?


He isn't, and neither is he an allstar until he makes drastic improvement.

everdiso wrote:Honestly, this is a large load of BS.

First off, you simply don't rack up 10 assists per game without taking risks. It's impossible. He just takes very smart risks, and has the skills to make those risks end up looking like easy plays. That's what he does best - make tough plays look easy. He almost never committs the cardinal sin of dribbling himself into no-man's land without an out, and he's very good and getting his teammates the ball at the right time in the right place.

Secondly, saying he can't execute in transition is fairly ridiculous. Under Mitchell, the Raps have not been a good transition team, but that has little to do with Calderon - there's no safer feeling than seeing Jose running in transition, because he's the one guy you know will give the ball to the right guy at the right time on the fast break, and not make the silly turnovers that we see so often in that situation.

Thirdly, yes, he plays the pick and roll with Bosh, and the two of them are one of the premier pick-and-roll threats in the entire league. He punishes players for going under the screen by hitting every open jump shot, and can always make the pass through to Bosh if he's covered. He can also turn the corner very well and get to the basket for easy layups consistently. This, again, is a very good quality. The pick and roll is one of the most fundamental and important plays in basketball, and Calderon is one of the very best in the league at it.

Lastly, Calderon, as a pass-first PG, always chooses to get his teammates involved first. He never tries to force his offense, and doesn't try to "take over games" unless it's needed. AQnd yes, he has shown many times capable of taking over games in the end....when other teams think they can cheat off him in the late going, he makes them pay. Consistently.


The fact of the matter is the average NBA fan loves athleticism and fancy dribbling more than solid fundamentals, and this is the only reason why anyone thinks Calderon doesn't have the "presence" of a star PG.

The fact of the matter is, he doesn't have that fan-friendly "presence", but he most certainly has the more important part of the equation - the PERFORMANCE.

You take the style, I'll take the substance.


You do notice I never mentioned TJ once in my entire post, correct? I am not a Raps fan and couldn't care less whether TJ got traded or not. The fact of the matter is, Calderon is neither flashy nor a borderline allstar PG like some of you proclaimed.

For the first paragraph, he doesn't overdribble himself into no man's land because he never tries to do anything aside from dribbling around the 3 point arc. He doesn't make tough passes look easy, the passes he makes ARE easy. As far as being in the right place, he has Bosh and everyone that can shoot the ball, so at least you're right on that.

In terms of fast breaks, Calderon may be capable of doing that, but so far in the season I haven't seen that from him. He has been playing strictly half court, I will buy the Mitchell excuse for now, but he has not shown transition offense to be one of his strong point.

For his pick and roll with Bosh, it's much less threatening when you know the PG is not going to turn the corner. This season, Calderon rarely takes advantage of a good pick by Bosh and create mismatches. Usually after the pick is set, Calderon takes two steps in and then stops. It certainly is helpful that he has a good jumper, but it's also very predictable and is nowhere as lethal as a pick and roll run by Deron or Nash.

As far as 'forcing' the offense goes, it is correct that he never tries, but when all he has is a jumper, then the best impact he makes would be similar to a Peja and not a Nash/Baron/Deron/Parker. Offensive creativity is not just showmanship, it's also a way to make the defense unable to react because the PG has a wide variety of ways to score and pass. The most Calderon does is that they can't leave him alone at the 3 point line, he doesn't force the defense to adjust in any other way.
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#111 » by SOUL » Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:21 pm

orl1724 wrote:Magic would be happy to take him. If you hate Calderon you would have commited suicide if Jameer Nelson was your starting PG.


Calderon is better than Nelson, but Nelson is outplaying him this year. Better D, averaging more, actually impacting the game and being aggressive... wont ever touch his assists though... but a lot of games we miss tons of easy jumpers... still I'd take Calderon, whow ouldnt?
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Re: Would your team want Jose Calderon? 

Post#112 » by Duncanfan » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:35 pm

Calderon is like the Tim Duncan of PG's.. though nowhere near as good as Duncan is.. but he has the same vibe around him.. boring game, no star presence, no flashy moves, no killer crossover, no flashy passes, no chest bumps, no "I own you, fool!" expressions on his face.. just comes in, does his job using his solid fundamentals and goes home to his wife..

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