Kobe's best PER season ranks just #49 on the alltime list

[Farm Raid]

Jordan23Forever likes to prop up PER because it props up Jordan. Illgauskus has like the 14th highest career PER of all active players. BS stat.

When you look at the list of all-time highest PER by career or season, except for one or two exceptions, it reads like a list of all-time greats. PER basically speaks for itself.

[Jordan23Forever]

Jordan23Forever likes to prop up PER because it props up Jordan. Illgauskus has like the 14th highest career PER of all active players. BS stat.

Believe me, I don't have to use PER to "prop up" Jordan, because I can look at basically any other production or winning-related metric ever devised and he'll be at or near the top. Kobe, by contrast, will be at or near the top (even among his peers, much less all-time) in none of them. Try harder next time, maybe you'll strike gold.

[mike-]

Okay, so we're admitting it's not a strawman then? Alright, just trying to keep up- the shifting of the goal posts here is dizzying.

No, a strawman is exactly what it is, and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise. Just because some hardcore kobe fanboy may have said one time that kobe is some great screener and that impact doesn't show up in PER doesn't make this not a strawman.

[Farm Raid]

Okay, so we're admitting it's not a strawman then? Alright, just trying to keep up- the shifting of the goal posts here is dizzying.

No, a strawman is exactly what it is, and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise. Just because some hardcore kobe fanboy may have said one time that kobe is some great screener and that impact doesn't show up in PER doesn't make this not a strawman.

He was talking specifically to a Kobe fanboy refuting the idea that Kobe's impact cannot properly be measured by PER (which implies that other players' contributions can be) and I responded to that and it's a strawman? Seriously?

No.

[LakerLegend]

Give me a break...lets look at the 2000 season:

Jeff Foster has the 4th HIGHEST PER in the LEAGUE

Kidd who average 14 pts/7rebs/10 ast/2 steals ranked 39th in the league in PER behind such luminarees as Earl Boykins, Danny Fortson, Abdur-Rahim, Darrell Armstrong, Ruben Patterson, and Mikki Moore. Hell Steve Francis is one spot ahead of Kidd...lol.

Allen Iverson is one spot behind Earl Boykins and 2 spots behind Danny Fortson

McDyess, Mutombo, Kidd, are below Sabonis

Jerome Williams is higher than Antoine Walker, Moochie Norris is higher than Rasheed Wallace

and it goes on and on

[mike-]

Okay, so we're admitting it's not a strawman then? Alright, just trying to keep up- the shifting of the goal posts here is dizzying.

No, a strawman is exactly what it is, and I'm not sure what leads you to believe otherwise. Just because some hardcore kobe fanboy may have said one time that kobe is some great screener and that impact doesn't show up in PER doesn't make this not a strawman.

He was talking specifically to a Kobe fanboy refuting the idea that Kobe's impact cannot properly be measured by PER (which implies that other players' contributions can be) and I responded to that and it's a strawman? Seriously?

No.

Uh he quoted someone that said stats are only a small part of the overall picture and then talked sarcastically about Kobe being the best flex cutter (and other intangibles) as if the guy who correctly asserted that stats don't tell the entire story was using that weak argument.

I'm not sure as to why you seem to be so confused about it being a strawman argument.

[amb1ent]

this thread is what happens when people that watch games encounter people that watch boxscores

[Jordan23Forever]

Give me a break...lets look at the 2000 season:

Jeff Foster has the 4th HIGHEST PER in the LEAGUE

Kidd who average 14 pts/7rebs/10 ast/2 steals ranked 39th in the league in PER behind such luminarees as Earl Boykins, Danny Fortson, Abdur-Rahim, Darrell Armstrong, Ruben Patterson, and Mikki Moore. Hell Steve Francis is one spot ahead of Kidd...lol.

Allen Iverson is one spot behind Earl Boykins and 2 spots behind Danny Fortson

McDyess, Mutombo, Kidd, are below Sabonis

Jerome Williams is higher than Antoine Walker, Moochie Norris is higher than Rasheed Wallace

and it goes on and on

PER measures per minute production. Your entire post betrays a galling lack of understanding of what PER claims to measure and what it doesn't. You can't compare the PERs of players who play vastly different mpg, nor does PER adequately capture defensive impact.

Regarding your Kidd example, his 14 points was on 41% shooting (sub-50% TS, mind you), so his 14 ppg doesn't amount to much. Scale that up to normal efficiency and you're looking at a 10-12 ppg scorer @ 47% FG. So how productive IS an 11 pt/7 reb/10 ast/2 stl/47% player? Well, probably exactly where PER said he was, which is a borderline all-star player (18.4 PER that season; ~20 is all-star level). And Kidd being one of the best defenders in the league isn't accounted for by PER, so that gives him a bump as well.

I also have to LOL @ "Jeff Foster has the 4th highest PER," because dude played 4 mpg that year. Here is the actual PER list from basketball-reference.com for the 2000 season:

Player Efficiency Rating

1. Shaquille O'Neal-LAL 30.6
2. Karl Malone-UTA 27.1
3. Alonzo Mourning-MIA 25.8
4. Tim Duncan-SAS 24.8
5. David Robinson-SAS 24.6
6. Grant Hill-DET 24.5
7. Kevin Garnett-MIN 23.6
8. Gary Payton-SEA 23.6
9. Chris Webber-SAC 23.4
10. Vince Carter-TOR 23.4
11. John Stockton-UTA 22.4
12. Kobe Bryant-LAL 21.7
13. Sam Cassell-MIL 21.1
14. Terrell Brandon-MIN 20.8
15. Stephon Marbury-NJN 20.7
16. Ray Allen-MIL 20.6
17. Elton Brand-CHI 20.6
18. Shareef Abdur-Rahim-VAN 20.2
19. Allen Iverson-PHI 20.0
20. Tracy McGrady-TOR 20.0

Oddly, they don't include Foster -- I wonder why? Could it be because low mpg players (never mind a guy playing just 4 mpg) don't qualify? I wonder why they make that assumption?

[Blame Rasho]

Give me a break...lets look at the 2000 season:

Jeff Foster has the 4th HIGHEST PER in the LEAGUE

Kidd who average 14 pts/7rebs/10 ast/2 steals ranked 39th in the league in PER behind such luminarees as Earl Boykins, Danny Fortson, Abdur-Rahim, Darrell Armstrong, Ruben Patterson, and Mikki Moore. Hell Steve Francis is one spot ahead of Kidd...lol.

Allen Iverson is one spot behind Earl Boykins and 2 spots behind Danny Fortson

McDyess, Mutombo, Kidd, are below Sabonis

Jerome Williams is higher than Antoine Walker, Moochie Norris is higher than Rasheed Wallace

and it goes on and on

Yeah with 19 games and 86 mins played... Honestly people love to use extremes and outlyers to make a misguided point... He isn't even qualified.

Yes PER is useless according to you. Good for you but other educated people think otherwise that it is a good guide to measure players.

[Jordan23Forever]

this thread is what happens when people that watch games encounter people that watch boxscores

Way to not comprehend a damn thing that's being said.

[Singh is King]

i think PER is a great stat, what bugs me is when people use it to compare players straight up ie jordan bulls, now if uses PER and shows how that person ranked according to their years, PER becomes more useful, but I hate the way people use it to compare players especially across era's you can't do that withough looking more in detail of where they ranked in comparison to the league, since PER is measured for the year and that year only, and that is what bugs me

[ToffKobe]

Useless stat IMO.

[Smoke[MaxX]]

Would anybody mind posting Dirk Nowitzki's recent (and/or best) PERs (with ranks) please? I would, but it's Finals week

[iamworthy]

MJ fans validate Kobe everytime!!!!

[Idunkon1stdates]

PER's pretty crappy, but it does correlate with popular opinion and MVP voting pretty well.

Here's a messageboard John Hollinger and other stats gurus post at. It has a lot of information on it more valuable than PER...

http://sonicscentral.com/apbrmetrics/viewforum.php?f=1

[Idunkon1stdates]

Jordan23Forever likes to prop up PER because it props up Jordan. Illgauskus has like the 14th highest career PER of all active players. BS stat.

Believe me, I don't have to use PER to "prop up" Jordan, because I can look at basically any other production or winning-related metric ever devised and he'll be at or near the top. Kobe, by contrast, will be at or near the top (even among his peers, much less all-time) in none of them. Try harder next time, maybe you'll strike gold.

This is pretty much true.

You can look at Dave Berri's "Wages of Wins," which overvalues rebounds as much as Hollinger overvalues shot creation, and you'll fine Jordan at or very near the top of the list for most productive seasons ever. Kobe's much further down.

Whether either metric is the holy grail of basketball analysis is another story altogether...

[Kakish]

Larry Bird's best is #54.

Tim Duncan's best is #73.

There goes this threads credibility.