Lebron the best ever to play?

[mup]

The OP is making a good point, but in the wrong way. If LeBron goes on to win it all without a true star player next to him, he'll do something MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq, Russell, etc. NEVER DID.

That would be some legendary sh*t. If he does it a few times, HE IS THE GOAT.

League's watered-down now. A lot less teams (fewer than 10) when Russell played--- that made it impossible to win without multiple hall of famers since every team had at least 3 (although Bob Pettit beat Russell and the Celtics with a bunch of garbage--- that dude was great-- too bad he's forgotten). So, it's a different ball game. Overall, lots of guys have won without a second star--- Pettit, Rick Barry, Walton, and whoever the hell was on the 1979 Supersonics, to name a few. By the way, who did Isiah Thomas have with him when he won back to back? Laimbeer and Dumars were solid but they weren't all-time greats.

Anyway, Z and Szczerbiak are all-stars and Ben Wallace is a hall of famer. Argue all you want that they are past their prime or were "default" all stars, but they are what they are. LeBron's not exactly playing with a CYO team out there.

LMAO...ok. None of these 3 guys are even top 50 players in the league. Ben Wallace isnt even a top 150 or more. Some hall of famer. Wally is even worse...he wouldnt crack the top 150 either. You say "they are what they are" but you're talking about what they WERE...so you're contradicting yourself...moron.

Moron? What happened to etiquette and civility? I understand that you may disagree with me, but way to take an inoffensive post not even directed at you and turn it into a personal attack against somebody you don't even know. Guess nobody is allowed to have an opinion unless they agree with the almighty "C'mon Cavs," whoever that is. I have to say this is the first time I've ever been attacked by another Cavs fan on here.

I'm not talking about what they WERE, ****. Z likely is going to the all-star game this year, or do you disagree with that? And do you disagree that Ben Wallace is a hall of famer? His credentials say differently. He has dropped off but not to the point that he is some scrub filling out the suit. This thread is stupid-- if the Cavs win the title this year, this is not the worst supporting cast to have done so. That was my point. If you want to believe differently in order to further your own "LeBron is god" hypothesis, then go right ahead.

[NO-KG-AI]

The problem with fans is that the player they like is the one they think is better, instead of having the player you think is better as the one you like more in a comparison.

I can like Chris Paul and not think he is the greatest PG of all time. Maybe I'm just strange.

[Farm Raid]

The problem with fans is that the player they like is the one they think is better, instead of having the player you think is better as the one you like more in a comparison.

I can like Chris Paul and not think he is the greatest PG of all time. Maybe I'm just strange.

You're a 'fan', not a 'cheerleader'. You are strange around these parts.

[Jordan23Forever]

Weren't they both like 7/5 guys?

No, that was the previous season. Pippen was at 14/6/4 and Grant 12/9. I'm more referring to their individual abilities at that point. Both were a lot more dependent on Jordan than they were in later years, and both were also not the defenders they would become. They also were not exactly the clutchest of players yet.

[z_from_kc]

Bron will be the goat, its inevitable.

[PleezeBelieve]

Okay, so are we really going to say LeBron couldn't win at a higher level than a 23-year old Jordan with a 14/6/4 Pip and 12/9 Grant plus an arsenal of deadly outside shooters on his team?

If you are, then its a direct slap in the face of LeBron. His Finals team had a 15/4/3 Hughes on it who shot 41% and barely played in the playoffs. Z averaged 12/8 on 48%. Boobie was a rookie and 6th man on thebench.

C'mon, what are we really saying here? Lets be serious, man. Not to mention, LeBron was freaking 22-years old. Went through a championship-winning Detroit team to do it.

Jordan has never done something like that at the comprable same age. Why even argue??? And for acting like people are only using playoff success as a barometer here, remember LeBron had alreay averaged 31/7/6 as a 21-year old.

This is why I dont like discussing Jordan anywhere. You people act like he walks on water. Dude has been eliminated multiple times in the first round. Dude was often criticised as being a me-first player. None of these things apply to LeBron.

In closing, what I really find funny about you Jordan honks is that you guys completely flip your arguments that you have when talking about Kobe than you do with LeBron. LeBron is the one who has the better case for a comparison to Jordan, but then you guys want to spit scoring accomplishments. But with Kobe, you talk about winning and leading. Passing. Rebounding. Shooting percentages. PER"s.

Its a joke, man. LeBron is well on his way to establishing his argument for GOAT. I dont need RealGM's validation in order to realize this is taking place. LeBron doesn't either.

[C'mon Cavs]

Moron? What happened to etiquette and civility? I understand that you may disagree with me, but way to take an inoffensive post not even directed at you and turn it into a personal attack against somebody you don't even know. Guess nobody is allowed to have an opinion unless they agree with the almighty "C'mon Cavs," whoever that is. I have to say this is the first time I've ever been attacked by another Cavs fan on here.

I'm not talking about what they WERE, ****. Z likely is going to the all-star game this year, or do you disagree with that? And do you disagree that Ben Wallace is a hall of famer? His credentials say differently. He has dropped off but not to the point that he is some scrub filling out the suit. This thread is stupid-- if the Cavs win the title this year, this is not the worst supporting cast to have done so. That was my point. If you want to believe differently in order to further your own "LeBron is god" hypothesis, then go right ahead.

No, you are doing worse than talking about what they were...you are making it appear as if they are the same players that they were in their prime years.

Z will probably be an all-star, but that's because all the best big men reside in the west besides KG and Dwight. If you made a list of the top 50 players in the NBA, Z probably doesnt have a spot, and if he does, he's right on the fringe. And when you factor in his age, his stock only drops.

I dont know if Ben Wallace is a hall of famer. I know that a true hall of famer shouldnt be reduced to the 6th or 7th best player on a team that features only one true all star. A true hall of famer should have a certain degree of TALENT...Ben Wallace was essentially just an athlete playing with other very good players.

At this point, he is pretty much a scrub. He's a good defensive player, but not the dominant one he used to be. He's a good rebounder, not the dominant one he used to be. And he's the worst offensive player in the NBA. Like I said, he's not even a top 150 player in the NBA...I doubt you could say that about any hall of famer that didnt suffer a major injury. And Wally is just awful. He can score sometimes, but he's definitely not a top 150 player.

If you believe that Ben Wallace is anything close to the "hall of fame" player he once was then you are a moron. If you believe that Z is an all-star caliber player, then you are a moron. And if you think Wally is, or ever was, an all-star caliber player, then you are a moron. It's not an attack, it's just a fact. If you want to believe differently...then you're a moron.

[shawngoat23]

I don't even know how to respond to this, so I'll ask the OP how long he's been watching the NBA.

[INKtastic]

some of the cavs fans are underrating LeBron's supporting cast in this thread.

Z is an all star this year
In most games, Ben is playing close to the level he did his last year in Detroit, but in fewer minutes. Look at the game tonight - 14 rebounds and 3 blocks in 28 minutes.
Andy is a strong 6th man
Mo has been outstanding

Clearly the best supporting cast LeBron has had - head and shoulders better than the cast he carried to the finals 2 years ago.

[SonicMcMahon]

To say that LeBron is the best to ever play is presumptuous for sure.

However, he is on a very similar path of success to Jordan in his early years, but with a finals appearance and no talk of him being selfish.

If this thread was made about MJ in '88, people would be saying the OP is ridiculous, crazy, and that the selfish Michael Jordan would never be a winner and certainly not the GOAT.

So... Let's wait and see.
' Cuz this LeBron guy is pretty good.

[Duiz]

Zydrunas Ilgauskas
Ben Wallace
Wally Szczerbiak

they have been allstars


and Michael Jordan is the best ever to play

+1

Thank you for saving me 5 seconds of my life.

[pistons_in_6]

I think we should wait for LBJ to finish his career then we can judge

Besides career ending injuries could occur, or career ruining injuries.

[tha_rock220]

Duncan in 03
Hakeem in 94
Barry in 75

It's a big accomplishment to win big with no big name help, but it doesn't mean you're doing it alone. Never underestimate the value of good complementary players and team chemistry. Besides, you need a hell of a resume to attain the distinction we're discussing here. LeBron has a shot, no doubt, but this season won't get him the nod.

[VicG]

It's way too early to even discuss this but if things go smoothly (no injuries), Lebron will be in the discussion for GOAT. Bill Walton said some people in his circle have started saying it already. I know one family friend who has been a basketball fan since the 60s. I mean, this dude saw Wilt V Russell at the Garden. He said that LeBron is the most "talented" (not necessarily best) player he had seen since Oscar Robertson. LeBron is now turning his immense talent into team success. Only time will tell.

[Warspite]

Im wondering if the OP is a Knicks fan who just doesnt think Walsh can surrond LBJ with talent but thinks the Knicks will win anyway. Kind of like a personality disorder in which you think the Knicks will be every good but not have any talent.

Isiah Thomas won 2 titles with no top 50 players as teammates. Hes the only top 50 player to have a ring and has no top 50 teammates.

The success of the Cavs, Lakers, Magic and Celtics with there rosters is as much an indictment of the level of talent in todays NBA as it is a sign of greatness. Right now 4 teams on nearly 70 win pace. Am I to believe the 86 Celtics or 67 Sixers arent good enough to get HC in todays league? Either Im led to believe that this is the greatest collection of NBA teams or this is one of the least talented leagues I have ever seen.

Ill go down on record as saying the success of todays stars has more to do with there peers than it does with there talent.

On another note if LBJ is to have a storied career filled with rings he most certainly will carry some players to allstar games and the HoF. Mc Hale and Pippen are 2 very good examples. McHale for all his greatness wasnt even a starter for half his career and owes many accolades to his teams success not to mention the 3-5 layups every night he was given from Bird drawing double teams. Pippen was the equipment manager in college at ARST. Pippen when he was drafted couldnt shoot outside 12 ft and couldnt dribble with either hand. Seattle quickly traded him for a all American C in Olden Polynice and everyone believed that Seattle stole that trade. W/O MJ playing with Pippen you wouldnt know who he was and he would have been nothing more than a journeyman.

[Jordan23Forever]

Okay, so are we really going to say LeBron couldn't win at a higher level than a 23-year old Jordan with a 14/6/4 Pip and 12/9 Grant plus an arsenal of deadly outside shooters on his team?

Uhh, yeah, I'm gonna say that. In that league and conference? What's he gonna do, get past Detroit? No. Jordan put up basically 35/7/8/51% FG in that season's playoffs (PER of 29.9; Lebron's best playoff PER? 24.2). Tell me again how Lebron is going to do so much better...

[Farm Raid]

Okay, so are we really going to say LeBron couldn't win at a higher level than a 23-year old Jordan with a 14/6/4 Pip and 12/9 Grant plus an arsenal of deadly outside shooters on his team?

...Yeah?

In closing, what I really find funny about you Jordan honks is that you guys completely flip your arguments that you have when talking about Kobe than you do with LeBron. LeBron is the one who has the better case for a comparison to Jordan, but then you guys want to spit scoring accomplishments. But with Kobe, you talk about winning and leading. Passing. Rebounding. Shooting percentages. PER"s.

Cause he did both? A lot of times, to a very high level?

Its a joke, man. LeBron is well on his way to establishing his argument for GOAT. I dont need RealGM's validation in order to realize this is taking place. LeBron doesn't either.

Okay guy.

[JordansBulls]

Isiah Thomas won 2 titles with no top 50 players as teammates. Hes the only top 50 player to have a ring and has no top 50 teammates.

If you look at those Pistons teams they had 6 guys whose ppg ranged from 14 - 18 ppg and 6 guys whose PER was from 16-18 in 1989 this including Dantley before he got traded.

In 1989 Bill Laimbeer led the team in Wins Shares and Dumars led the team in Win Shares in the playoffs.
Dumars led the team in Offensive Win Shares in the season and in the playoffs and led them in Win Shares in the playoffs.

Isiah did more for the team for sure in 1990, but even so Laimbeer still led them in Win Shares in the season. Isiah was 4th on the team in Win Shares that year. Dumars led the team in OWS as well and Isiah beat out Dumars in PER at 17.3 to 17.2.

So it's not like Isiah was clearly the best on the team. He was the best on the team, but not by much. Dumars is a hall of famer as well and he even won the 1st finals mvp for the team.

[infinite11285]

Is this thread a joke? How old are you PleezeBelieve?

Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player EVER. Bill Russell is the greatest winner EVER. LeBron might end up being the best Cleveland Cavalier EVER, but the best to ever play, no. Not by a long shot. There are greats that were not considered to be the best player ever, but they are all greater than LeBron.

Here is a list of Jordan's unparalled accomplishments, many of which LeBron will not even come close to accomplishing (and I'm a LeBron fan).


NBA 50th Anniversary All-Time Team (1996)

Member of six NBA championship teams (1991-93, 1996-98)

Five-time NBA Most Valuable Player (1988, 1991-92, 1996, 1998)

Six-time NBA Finals Most Valuable Player (1991-93, 1996-98)

Ten-time All-NBA First Team (1987-93, 1996-98)

Nine-time NBA All-Defensive First Team (1987-93, 1996-98)

NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)

Passed Kareem Abdul-Jabbar to become the NBA's all-time leading playoff scorer (5,762 points) during the 1998 Eastern Conference Finals

Broke Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's NBA record by scoring in double-digits for the 788th consecutive game, scoring a game-high 33 points, against the Minnesota Timberwolves on 12/30/97

Holds the NBA record for most seasons leading league in scoring -- 10; highest points per game average (minimum 400 games or 10,000 points) -- 31.5; most seasons leading league in field goals made -- 10; and most seasons leading league in field goals attempted -- 10

Holds single-game records for most free throws made in one half -- 20 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most free-throws attempted in one half -- 23 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Shares single-game records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 14 (December 30, 1992, at Miami); and most free-throws attempted in one quarter -- 16 (December 30, 1992, at Miami)

Holds the NBA Finals record for highest single-series scoring average -- 41.0 ppg (1993)

Holds NBA Finals record for most three-point field goals made -- 42; and most consecutive games with 20 or more points -- 35 (June 2, 1991-June 14, 1998)

Holds the NBA Finals single-game record for most points in one half -- 35 (June 3, 1992 vs. Portland)

Shares NBA Finals single-game records for most field goals made in one half -- 14; and most three-point field goals made in one half -- 6 (June 3, 1992, vs. Portland); most free throws made in one quarter -- 9 (June 11, 1997 vs. Utah); and most free throws attempted in one half -- 15 (June 4, 1997, vs. Utah)

Shares single-game playoff records for most field goals made -- 24 (May 1, 1998, vs. Cleveland); most field goals attempted in one half -- 25 (May 1, 1988, vs. Cleveland); and most three-point field goals made in one half -- 6 (June 6, 1992, vs. Portland)

Shares the NBA career record for most seasons with 2,000 or more points -- 11; and most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring --7 (1986-87 through 1992-93)

Holds the NBA Playoffs record for most points -- 5,987; highest points-per-game average (minimum 25 games or 625 points) -- 33.4 ppg; most field goals attempted -- 4,497; most free throws made -- 1,463; most free throws attempted -- 1,766; and most steals -- 376


Here is the rest of Jordan's accomplishments:

All-NBA Second team (1985) <---as a rookie

NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)

NBA All-Rookie Team (1985)

Two-time IBM Award winner, for all-around contribution to team's success (1985, 1989)

Three-time NBA All-Star Game MVP (1988, 1996, 1998)

Participated in 11 NBA All-Star Games (1985, 1987-1993, 1996-98), starting 10 times, and missed another due to injury

Holds the NBA All-Star Game career record for highest scoring average (21.3 ppg)

Recorded only triple-double in All-Star Game history, with 14 points, 11 rebounds and 11 assists, in the 1997 NBA All-Star Game in Cleveland

Won the Nestle Crunch Slam Dunk in 1987 and 1988, also participating in 1985

Passed Dennis Johnson into fourth place on the NBA's all-time playoff assists list (1,006), in an 88-83 victory over the Indiana Pacers in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference Finals in 1997-98

Scored his 29,000th career point, posting a game-high 41 points, 6 rebounds and 4 assists, in a 107-93 win over the Minnesota Timberwolves on 4/3

Scored a career-high 69 points in a 117-113 overtime win at Cleveland on 3/28/90

Chicago Bulls all-time leader in scoring (29,277 points), assists (5,012) and steals (2,306)

Scored a career playoff-high 63 points against the Boston Celtics on 4/20/86, setting an NBA record for most points in a playoff game

Holds single-game playoff records for most free throws made in one quarter -- 13; and most free throws attempted in one quarter -- 14 (May 21, 1991, vs. Detroit)

Recorded two playoff career triple-doubles, both against the New York Knicks (May 9, 1989 and June 2, 1993)

Notched 28th career triple-doubles, the last being a 30 point, 11 rebound and 10 assist effort against the Toronto Raptors on 4/14/97

Member of the gold-medal-winning U.S. Olympic team (1984, 1992)

As a freshman at the University of North Carolina, hit the game-winning shot in the 1982 NCAA Championship game

Named College Player of the Year by The Sporting News in both 1983 and 1984 and won the Naismith and Wooden Awards in 1984

If your still convinced that LeBron is the best to ever play, you are in some serious denial. LeBorn has a Mt. Everest sized mountain to climb before he is even considered to be the best to ever play.

[Celtsfan1980]

He frightens me probably even more than Duncan so I think he's the only current player who has GOAT potential. I'll always consider Russell as the greatest but I can understand why people would say Jordan. He hasn't shown much clutch ability when it matters the most, so Lebron has a far ways to go.