Seasons that would be much more highly valued if a different player had them

[An Unbiased Fan]

Kobe 00-10 seasons

[70sFan]

Kobe 00-10 seasons

I'm sure people would rave about someone else having a season like Kobe had in 2005.

[falcolombardi]

In general terms most unremarkable non peak seasons of megastars would be much more talked about if a lesser star had them as it would be -their- peak season

The peak season of a top 20 player winning his ring (2011 for dirk if you consider it his peak year overall) is a lot more memorable than lebron 4th best ring winning season (2020) or jordan weakest bull championship year (1998)

And the same thingh applies going down to the next tier

A regular dirk prime season (lets say 2009) would be the best year of someone like karl anthony towns

[sp6r=underrated]

Most of the seasons being named are guys who got maybe a 6 on the credit scale and would get a 10 if it was by someone else. And almost all of them are from players who get top 30 consideration. There are a lot of dudes who have seasons that get 0 recognition that moved the needle alot.

[falcolombardi]

Most of the seasons being named are guys who got maybe a 6 on the credit scale and would get a 10 if it was by someone else. And almost all of them are from players who get top 30 consideration. There are a lot of dudes who have seasons that get 0 recognition that moved the needle alot.

Do you see my 2016 westbrook example as such a case?

I honestly think the numbers, impact specifically amd the offense results of that season with a more respected guard (lets say nash, curry or even paul)

And that season becomes seen as a peak contender year for even curry

Am i wrong in thinking that? A +8 offense when healthy (historically high) in reg season, had one superstar (durant) but the rest of tge team were limited offensive players outside of pffensive rebounding

Had the best impact metrics on the team and went toe to toe with two different 70 win srs teams

[sp6r=underrated]

Most of the seasons being named are guys who got maybe a 6 on the credit scale and would get a 10 if it was by someone else. And almost all of them are from players who get top 30 consideration. There are a lot of dudes who have seasons that get 0 recognition that moved the needle alot.

Do you see my 2016 westbrook example as such a case?

I honestly think the numbers, impact specifically amd the offense results of that season with a more respected guard (lets say nash, curry or even paul)

And that season becomes seen as a peak contender year for even curry

Am i wrong in thinking that? A +8 offense when healthy (historically high) in reg season, had one superstar (durant) but the rest of tge team were limited offensive players outside of pffensive rebounding

Had the best impact metrics on the team and went toe to toe with two different 70 win srs teams

I was more talking about KG, Bird, Lebron and others being listed. I agree West would get more recognition but I think his low recognition right now is temporary. We're seeing him at his worst currently and it impacts our memory. I think that will fade in time. He'll still get the no ring in prime penalty but it will be remembered with credit.

By contrast there are are seasons totally gone.

[ty 4191]

Someone mentioned Rick Barry, who gets little to no respect and mention here. His 1966-1967 season would be the kind of season we're talking about, I think, if it happened today.

He was hated then, and he's loathed generally now, but, we cannot deny how awesome he was.

[homecourtloss]

Someone mentioned Rick Barry, who gets little to no respect and mention here. His 1966-1967 season would be the kind of season we're talking about, I think, if it happened today.

He was hated then, and he's loathed generally now, but, we cannot deny how awesome he was.

His peak got voted as the 37th highest peak and he was voted in as the 35th in the Top 100 project. He gets plenty of respect here compared to just about anywhere else.

[ty 4191]

Someone mentioned Rick Barry, who gets little to no respect and mention here. His 1966-1967 season would be the kind of season we're talking about, I think, if it happened today.

He was hated then, and he's loathed generally now, but, we cannot deny how awesome he was.

His peak got voted as the 37th highest peak and he was voted in as the 35th in the Top 100 project. He gets plenty of respect here compared to just about anywhere else.

Don't you think 35th/37th is a bit low for someone who averaged 25/8/4 in the playoffs (NBA only) in his career?

[Jaivl]

Someone mentioned Rick Barry, who gets little to no respect and mention here. His 1966-1967 season would be the kind of season we're talking about, I think, if it happened today.

He was hated then, and he's loathed generally now, but, we cannot deny how awesome he was.

His peak got voted as the 37th highest peak and he was voted in as the 35th in the Top 100 project. He gets plenty of respect here compared to just about anywhere else.

Don't you think 35th/37th is a bit low for someone who averaged 25/8/4 in the playoffs (NBA only) in his career?

That sounds awfully similar to Melo's averages in Denver and NYK. I have Barry a bit higher (29 I think?) but slashlines are whatever.

[Rich Michmond]

Bird, LeBron or Wilt are certainly NOT guys I would think of.

I'm thinking more like, 1970 Gus Johnson, 1979 and 1980 Gus Williams, etc.

I think people would lose their minds if a Lillard averaged 29/3.5/3.5 while shooting .500 from the field (no threes) in an NBA finals. This is what Gus Williams averaged in the 1979 finals en route to a gentleman's sweep and it's basically never mentioned.

[penbeast0]

Adrian Dantley peak/prime/career would be rated top 30 of all time if his name was Bernard King and he had played for the Knicks. Similarly, Terrell Brandon would be much more appreciated in a major market rather than Cleveland and Minnesota; he was the closest thing the 90s had to Chris Paul (stylistically, impact-wise that would be Stockton).

[penbeast0]

Someone mentioned Rick Barry, who gets little to no respect and mention here. His 1966-1967 season would be the kind of season we're talking about, I think, if it happened today.

He was hated then, and he's loathed generally now, but, we cannot deny how awesome he was.

His peak got voted as the 37th highest peak and he was voted in as the 35th in the Top 100 project. He gets plenty of respect here compared to just about anywhere else.

Don't you think 35th/37th is a bit low for someone who averaged 25/8/4 in the playoffs (NBA only) in his career?

I think it's pretty reasonable for a guy with mediocre rTS, inconsistent defensive effort, and a toxic personality. Those things count too.

[ty 4191]

Adrian Dantley peak/prime/career would be rated top 30 of all time if his name was Bernard King and he had played for the Knicks.

What are the reasons why Dantley so underrated most places (and, so unknown by the average fan today)? I ask because he was slightly before my time.

How many guys have averaged 29.6+ ppg for 7 (consecutive) years in NBA history?

[70sFan]

Adrian Dantley peak/prime/career would be rated top 30 of all time if his name was Bernard King and he had played for the Knicks.

We have the winner here!

[ty 4191]

I think it's pretty reasonable for a guy with mediocre rTS, inconsistent defensive effort, and a toxic personality. Those things count too.

They certainly do.

Do you happen to have contemporaneous articles speaking to his defense and toxic personality? Much appreciated; I'm here to learn from scribes such as yourself.

Thanks!

[falcolombardi]

Adrian Dantley peak/prime/career would be rated top 30 of all time if his name was Bernard King and he had played for the Knicks.

What are the reasons why Dantley so underrated most places (and, so unknown by the average fan today)? I ask because he was slightly before my time.

How many guys have averaged 29.6+ ppg for 7 (consecutive) years in NBA history?

Well for starters he is a older 80's player that is not magic or bird so less remembered

He didnt win rings first and foremost for a explanation

He also spend the hearth of his prime in utah and unlike malone amd stockton in a mostly mediocre utah team

He played mostly on mediocre teams outside detroit, and while not his fault, that pistons won after trading him is probably somethingh weighting in people minds

That his teams were not usually good probably gives people second thoughts, and that is where a "empty stats" or "blackhole" explanation probably comes from (even from people who disnt watch him but heard it about him) to explain why a scorer with better stats than jordan was not on winning teams

[Owly]

I think it's pretty reasonable for a guy with mediocre rTS, inconsistent defensive effort, and a toxic personality. Those things count too.

They certainly do.

Do you happen to have contemporaneous articles speaking to his defense and toxic personality? Much appreciated; I'm here to learn from scribes such as yourself.

Thanks!

Whilst toxic is a strong word ... I would have imagined you could just google Rick Barry personality and get a taste of the issues. I did and without clicking any just the samples yeah you get it ("arrogant" "impossible son of a ..." "prickly" "demonstrative" "outspoken" "difficult" "harsh" "grated like fingernails on a chalkboard"). Or read any bio or discussion of him.

I don't know the extent to which it was harmful. Personality stuff is always subjective and so you'd have to draw your own conclusions.

It'd be harder to dig out contemporaneous stuff because most of that is gone but if desperate
a) those articles will tend to come with quotes from both teammates as well as opponents.
b) search in places like the SI archives

All that said it would be a surprise if someone voting here hadn't heard of Barry (repeatedly) being called a jerk. I think he's probably the guy where the personality thing most commonly is the lead thing about him in stories (among "conventional wisdom" top 50 types. Hayes might be up there, and there's Rodman when you go a bit lower).

Ditto the above re fuzziness and loss of information (games and reporting/anecdotal stuff) on D, but for instance Robert Kalich graded his D a 5 out of 10 (this is of course just one number representing one opinion) in his Basketball Ratings Handbook (to give you an idea of the curve he graded greats on Oscar totals 147 of possible 150 and Barry scores a perfect 10 in eight of fifteen categories). That said I would re-emphasize the fuzziness and upside versus the more bearish position if one is convinced he is a consistent and clear positive defender. I will say that that isn't the conventional wisdom reason why he's been touted so high but that doesn't mean it wasn't the case.