What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time?

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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#21 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:36 am

flaco wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Flaco wrote:Explain Yourself

I genuinely believe Magic is the GOAT. My case is rather simple. Basketball is a team game. The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Magic was the greatest at elevating his teammates, hence he's the greatest at elevating his team in general.

Not sure who said Bird is outside of the top 15. If you ask me, I'm sky high on Bird as well. I believe it's totally reasonable to argue that Bird was better than Magic/Jordan/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt/Russ/you name it. I consider all these guys legit GOAT candidates. As great as Bird was in the 80s, he would have been even better in today's game cause he was a lethal shooter. Btw, I believe Magic would have been a Point Center in the pace-and-space era, sort of like a rich man's Jokic.

Magic is nowhere the size of Jokic or any other star caliber center.

Don't get how he would duplicate what Jokic is doing. Why wouldn't he just play point guard?
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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#22 » by Laimbeer » Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:24 pm

flaco wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Flaco wrote:Explain Yourself

I genuinely believe Magic is the GOAT. My case is rather simple. Basketball is a team game. The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Magic was the greatest at elevating his teammates, hence he's the greatest at elevating his team in general.

Not sure who said Bird is outside of the top 15. If you ask me, I'm sky high on Bird as well. I believe it's totally reasonable to argue that Bird was better than Magic/Jordan/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt/Russ/you name it. I consider all these guys legit GOAT candidates. As great as Bird was in the 80s, he would have been even better in today's game cause he was a lethal shooter. Btw, I believe Magic would have been a Point Center in the pace-and-space era, sort of like a rich man's Jokic.
If that is your criteria, I would like to see your top 10.

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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#23 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sat Jul 16, 2022 4:30 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
flaco wrote:
Colbinii wrote:

I genuinely believe Magic is the GOAT. My case is rather simple. Basketball is a team game. The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Magic was the greatest at elevating his teammates, hence he's the greatest at elevating his team in general.

Not sure who said Bird is outside of the top 15. If you ask me, I'm sky high on Bird as well. I believe it's totally reasonable to argue that Bird was better than Magic/Jordan/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt/Russ/you name it. I consider all these guys legit GOAT candidates. As great as Bird was in the 80s, he would have been even better in today's game cause he was a lethal shooter. Btw, I believe Magic would have been a Point Center in the pace-and-space era, sort of like a rich man's Jokic.
If that is your criteria, I would like to see your top 10.

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This. The first answer to this question is what criteria is being used.
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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#24 » by Laimbeer » Sat Jul 16, 2022 5:06 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:
flaco wrote:I genuinely believe Magic is the GOAT. My case is rather simple. Basketball is a team game. The whole is always greater than the sum of its parts. Magic was the greatest at elevating his teammates, hence he's the greatest at elevating his team in general.

Not sure who said Bird is outside of the top 15. If you ask me, I'm sky high on Bird as well. I believe it's totally reasonable to argue that Bird was better than Magic/Jordan/LeBron/Kareem/Wilt/Russ/you name it. I consider all these guys legit GOAT candidates. As great as Bird was in the 80s, he would have been even better in today's game cause he was a lethal shooter. Btw, I believe Magic would have been a Point Center in the pace-and-space era, sort of like a rich man's Jokic.
If that is your criteria, I would like to see your top 10.

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This. The first answer to this question is what criteria is being used.


"greatest at elevating his teammates"

Then Nash is ahead of Shaq?
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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#25 » by flaco » Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:20 pm

Laimbeer wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Laimbeer wrote:If that is your criteria, I would like to see your top 10.

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This. The first answer to this question is what criteria is being used.


"greatest at elevating his teammates"

Then Nash is ahead of Shaq?

When comparing players from the same Tier, then BBIQ is the decisive factor in my book (=elevating his teammates). Don't think Nash and Shaq are in the same Tier.

Regarding your first response, I don't have a clear top 10. I rank players in Tiers. Here's my Tier 1, in random order.

  • Magic (imo, the GOAT)
  • Bird
  • Jordan
  • LeBron
  • Wilt
  • Russ
  • Kareem
  • (when all is said and done, maybe Luka)

And here's my Tier 2, in random order:

  • Duncan
  • Shaq
  • Dream
  • KD
  • Oscar
  • Steph
  • (when all is said and done, maybe Giannis and Jokic)

I believe it's reasonalbe to argue in favor of any player within the same Tier. Feel free to pick the 3 guys you like the most from Tier 2 to come up with a top 10.
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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#26 » by ceoofkobefans » Sun Jul 17, 2022 3:22 am

In my current criteria I have Magic and bird interchangeable at 11 and 12 but I can’t really have them Much worse if you were to like barley value peaks at all then yea keeping them out of the t15 would be reasonable but you’d have to be comically high on longevity which is kinda dumb I can’t lie
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Re: What criteria would someone have to have to have Magic in the GOAT conversation, Bird outside the top 15 all-time? 

Post#27 » by trex_8063 » Sun Jul 17, 2022 4:18 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:
As you know from previous conversations, longevity IS very important to me.......but even I can't get Bird out of the top 15. Maybe in a few years (I could conceivably see guys like Curry, Giannis, Jokic, or Durant surpassing Bird eventually; but it hasn't happened yet [for me]).

to push bird out of the top 15 based on longetvity you'd probably need to rate someone like dirk higher. How do you think dirk/bird compare peak wise


To me longevity should only be a factor when comparing players of a similar level but others have different views on it. Though that is also subjective as I believe the likes of Karl Malone, Dirk and Kobe were never on the same level as prime Bird but others might see a bunch of MVPs and deem it close enough for the longevity to make the difference.

This is also mainly why I hate the season counting approach some people use, since there is a never a clear line when it is or isn't applicable. Like why would you use longevity to push Karl Malone into the top 15 but then have Artis Gilmore somewhere around 50th, if that even?


Well.....I wouldn't. Gilmore's in my top 40.

To answer Ohayo, I think Bird peaked higher than Karl, or Kobe, or Dirk. And I DO have Dirk in my top 15 [but he's still 1-2 places behind Bird].

EDIT: And there IS a clear line where it isn't applicable [for me].
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