Better Player During Prime: Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd

[HeartBreakKid]

Isiah is the better shooter, passer, leader and he is the quickest/ hardest to guard.

If you want to win you want Isiah Thomas.


If you like to lose but look cool you want Kidd and if you like to run your offense through the low post with your PG posting up and 7fters shooting 3s then you want GP.

huh? Doesn't Isiah Thomas have a more crowd pleasing style than Kidd? And how is Kidd a loser?

Isiah is a better shooter and is harder to guard...everything else you said seems not really true? Better passer and leader than kidd?

I mean I get it...you're saying Thomas has two rings in his prime while Kidd did not have one, so Isiah is a winner and a leader and Kidd is not. I feel like you're not acknowledging that Kidd's teams massively overachieved relative to their talent level...they did not lose because Kidd is a "loser".

Isiah Thomas played with 5 other guys who were all-stars, making it seem like he's the natural born winner because he was technically the best player on a team with 6 all stars is lame.

[SickMother]

What actually decides a prime.

For me the prime is decided by the quality of play relative to surrounding seasons for any given player. There is no fixed length, each individual is different.

Here are what I would consider the primes for the three players in this thread...

Isiah 22-24: 21.5 PER | .533 TS% | .157 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM

Kidd 25-33: 19.9 PER | .508 TS% | .157 WS/48 | 4.9 BPM

Glove 25-33: 21.5 PER | .537 TS% | .180 WS/48 | 4.9 BPM

I'd be curios to see the numbers for the primes of

CP3
Stockton
Nash

I have a feeling these players are close too. Stockton might be closer to the above group though, hard to say.

Here's what I'd call the prime for each of those three plus Billups, who compares pretty favorably also...

Paul 22-32: 26.3 PER | .589 TS% | .265 WS/48 | 8.6 BPM

Stockton 25-34: 22.7 PER | .619 TS% | .221 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM

Nash 28-33: 22.2 PER | .616 TS% | .198 WS/48 | 4.5 BPM

Billups 26-31: 21.0 PER | .592 TS% | .222 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM

My prime PG tiers at this point are Magic/Curry (break) Oscar/Jerry/Paul (break) Stockton/Nash/Billups/Frazier (break) and then guys like Payton, Kidd, Westbrook, Lillard, Parker, Cousy, Isiah in the next grouping.

[penbeast0]

Here's what I'd call the prime for each of those three plus Billups, who compares pretty favorably also...

Paul 22-32: 26.3 PER | .589 TS% | .265 WS/48 | 8.6 BPM

Stockton 25-34: 22.7 PER | .619 TS% | .221 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM

Nash 28-33: 22.2 PER | .616 TS% | .198 WS/48 | 4.5 BPM

Billups 26-31: 21.0 PER | .592 TS% | .222 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM

My prime PG tiers at this point are Magic/Curry (break) Oscar/Jerry/Paul (break) Stockton/Nash/Billups/Frazier (break) and then guys like Payton, Kidd, Westbrook, Lillard, Parker, Cousy, Isiah in the next grouping.

Does that tier and stat grouping where you have 3 good defenders and Steve Nash include any modifier for defensive value? (Defense probably Stockton, Paul, Billups . . . Nash)

[mdonnelly1989]

For me the prime is decided by the quality of play relative to surrounding seasons for any given player. There is no fixed length, each individual is different.

Here are what I would consider the primes for the three players in this thread...

Isiah 22-24: 21.5 PER | .533 TS% | .157 WS/48 | 5.4 BPM

Kidd 25-33: 19.9 PER | .508 TS% | .157 WS/48 | 4.9 BPM

Glove 25-33: 21.5 PER | .537 TS% | .180 WS/48 | 4.9 BPM

I'd be curios to see the numbers for the primes of

CP3
Stockton
Nash

I have a feeling these players are close too. Stockton might be closer to the above group though, hard to say.

Here's what I'd call the prime for each of those three plus Billups, who compares pretty favorably also...

Paul 22-32: 26.3 PER | .589 TS% | .265 WS/48 | 8.6 BPM

Stockton 25-34: 22.7 PER | .619 TS% | .221 WS/48 | 8.0 BPM

Nash 28-33: 22.2 PER | .616 TS% | .198 WS/48 | 4.5 BPM

Billups 26-31: 21.0 PER | .592 TS% | .222 WS/48 | 5.2 BPM

My prime PG tiers at this point are Magic/Curry (break) Oscar/Jerry/Paul (break) Stockton/Nash/Billups/Frazier (break) and then guys like Payton, Kidd, Westbrook, Lillard, Parker, Cousy, Isiah in the next grouping.

Wow, that's interesting to have Billups in that discussion I always thought of him as more of a top 15 PG of all time. At the tail end of the 15.

[JordansBulls]

Isiah
Payton
Kidd

[SickMother]

Does that tier and stat grouping where you have 3 good defenders and Steve Nash include any modifier for defensive value? (Defense probably Stockton, Paul, Billups . . . Nash)

Yeah, PER, WS/48 & BPM all have defensive components (obviously debatable how accurate/reliable they are) & Nash's overall numbers are definitely held back relative to other PGs because of it. Just looking at career marks for those four...

Stockton: 64.9 DWS | 1.9 DBPM | 104 DRtg
Paul: 54.0 DWS | 2.2 DBPM | 105 DRtg
Billups: 28.3 DWS | -0.3 DBPM | 107 DRtg
Nash: 16.1 DWS | -1.3 DBPM | 111 DRtg

Wow, that's interesting to have Billups in that discussion I always thought of him as more of a top 15 PG of all time. At the tail end of the 15.

Billups is sneaky good for sure, mostly on account of his massive edge in shooting efficiency (109 career | 115 peak TS+) compared to guys like Westbrook (96 career | 102 peak TS+), Isiah (96 career | 103 peak TS+), Kidd (96 career | 106 peak TS+), and Payton (100 career | 104 peak TS+).

Chauncey was also a legit playoff performer. Career postseason totals...

Billups: 19.1 PER | .578 TS% | 20.6 WS | .186 WS/48 | 4.3 BPM | 118 ORtg | 106 DRtg
C Paul: 23.6 PER | .587 TS% | 20.9 WS | .193 WS/48 | 6.9 BPM | 119 ORtg | 109 DRtg
Stockton: 19.8 PER | .568 TS% | 21.4 WS | .160 WS/48 | 6.0 BPM | 116 ORtg | 107 DRtg
Isiah T: 19.8 PER | .520 TS% | 12.5 WS | .143 WS/48 | 6.0 BPM | 110 ORtg | 105 DRtg
S Nash: 19.8 PER | .583 TS% | 11.9 WS | .133 WS/48 | 3.2 BPM | 116 ORtg | 114 DRtg
Russ W: 22.2 PER | .508 TS% | 10.4 WS | .119 WS/48 | 4.7 BPM | 106 ORtg | 108 DRtg
J Kidd: 17.1 PER | .498 TS% | 14.5 WS | .114 WS/48 | 4.3 BPM | 105 ORtg | 103 DRtg
Payton: 15.4 PER | .506 TS% | 11.1 WS | .098 WS/48 | 1.8 BPM | 107 ORtg | 108 DRtg

Pretty clear separation for me between the Top 3 and Bottom 5 here.