Reggie Miller/Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant/Kevin Durant

[Stalwart]

Ya, I don't see Kobe being in love with the idea of playing next to one of the few wings in the history of the nba who is a better scorer than he is and who pretty much prevents him from winning any scoring titles and I don't think KD would enjoy it either. That's just disaster written all over it by year 4 or 5. Give me LBJ+Reggie.

Why do you think Reggie Miller would enjoy playing next to a player significantly better than him who will get all the credit?

3 reasons:
1. Reggie wasn't a superstar anyhow ie I don't think he'd have the same delusions of grandeur that Kobe/KD would
2. LeBron's skill set makes Reggie better and easier for him to score
3. I think Reggie was pretty old school in terms of winning trumping everything else

I don't know if that's true. Reggie's game is predicated on the team moving the ball around. Lebron's game is predicated on him being the creator for himself and others. I don't see how Reggie is going to be as effective running baselines and curls while Lebron is holding the ball so much. Lebron typically drives and kicks to stationary spot up shooters not guys like Reggie who are constantly moving from one side of the court to the other.

Thats not too say they couldn't figure it out but it would require Lebron to change his game a bit. I don't think Reggie thrives playing in a heliocentric offense.

[SickMother]

One of these is not like the other…

Yeah, LeBron.

Exactly. This is the same concept at work as in the thread discussing if the difference is larger from 1-10 or from 10-20. Even though the gap on the list is ordinally larger from KD/Kobe in the teens down to Reggie in the thirties, the difference in actual production is about the same as the ordinally smaller gap from LeBron at the top down to KD/Kobe in the teens...

Here's a way to illustrate it with numbers, top five seasons by Win Shares & VORP for each duo...

LeBron (90.3) + Reggie (60.6)= 150.9 Win Shares
LeBron (51.2) + Reggie (25.0) = 76.2 VORP

Durant (80.9) + Kobe (69.7) = 150.6 Win Shares
Durant (39.6) + Kobe (34.0) = 73.6 VORP

Kudos to JordanBulls, who said it was too close to decide. Those best five seasons WS/VORP totals are about as close as it gets. Pretty much comes down to if one prefers more of a 1A/1B type set up or the more clearly defined Batman/Robin roles.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't know if that's true. Reggie's game is predicated on the team moving the ball around. Lebron's game is predicated on him being the creator for himself and others. I don't see how Reggie is going to be as effective running baselines and curls while Lebron is holding the ball so much. Lebron typically drives and kicks to stationary spot up shooters not guys like Reggie who are constantly moving from one side of the court to the other.

Thats not too say they couldn't figure it out but it would require Lebron to change his game a bit. I don't think Reggie thrives playing in a heliocentric offense.

I think its over estimated how heliocentric LeBron's offenses were before 2018 and it wouldn't be that hard for a coach to utilize Reggie's strengths one way or another if they are being coached together from the start.

[Snakebites]

I like Reggie Miller more than a lot of people do I think, but to me the talent gap is too big here. You gotta go KD/Kobe.

[JordansBulls]

I like Reggie Miller more than a lot of people do I think, but to me the talent gap is too big here. You gotta go KD/Kobe.

Reggie led a team to the finals as much as KD did for the team that drafted them.

[Snakebites]

I like Reggie Miller more than a lot of people do I think, but to me the talent gap is too big here. You gotta go KD/Kobe.

Reggie led a team to the finals as much as KD did for the team that drafted them.

Sure. He stayed with the same team his whole career.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Colbinii]

I like Reggie Miller more than a lot of people do I think, but to me the talent gap is too big here. You gotta go KD/Kobe.

Reggie led a team to the finals as much as KD did for the team that drafted them.

Sure. He stayed with the same team his whole career.

What does that have to do with anything?

Its almost as if JordanBulls could take his statement, as himself "why is this the case" and answer the question.

Unfortunately, JordansBulls is a computer script written in the 1980s that isn't functionally able to answer its own questions.

[Ginoboleee]

I think both Kobe and KD are over-rated in general, but just by a few spots.

Whereas Reggie is easily one of the most over-rated players ever. Shouldn't have made the 75-year team.

Beating LeBron is almost impossible, but Kobe will keep it close.
KD over Reggie is a blow-out.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think both Kobe and KD are over-rated in general, but just by a few spots.

Whereas Reggie is easily one of the most over-rated players ever. Shouldn't have made the 75-year team.

Beating LeBron is almost impossible, but Kobe will keep it close.
KD over Reggie is a blow-out.

Don't agree but at all but consider how many other players in nba history were the focal point of mostly very good to great offenses for stretches of 12+ years and who also took MJ's Bulls to 7 games(with a 4th qtr lead in game 7) and a finals. Granted those Ind teams had great depth but Reggie's playoff series speak for themselves imo. I mean I would say he doesn't bring too much else other than scoring above an average level but its very hard for any team to match up with him other than hope he misses his shots.

[Stalwart]

I think both Kobe and KD are over-rated in general, but just by a few spots.

Whereas Reggie is easily one of the most over-rated players ever. Shouldn't have made the 75-year team.

Beating LeBron is almost impossible, but Kobe will keep it close.
KD over Reggie is a blow-out.

Lebron is a great player but he gets beat all the time. Im not sure where this impression that he's almost impossible to beat comes from.

[Ginoboleee]

I think both Kobe and KD are over-rated in general, but just by a few spots.

Whereas Reggie is easily one of the most over-rated players ever. Shouldn't have made the 75-year team.

Beating LeBron is almost impossible, but Kobe will keep it close.
KD over Reggie is a blow-out.

Don't agree but at all but consider how many other players in nba history were the focal point of mostly very good to great offenses for stretches of 12+ years and who also took MJ's Bulls to 7 games(with a 4th qtr lead in game 7) and a finals. Granted those Ind teams had great depth but Reggie's playoff series speak for themselves imo. I mean I would say he doesn't bring too much else other than scoring above an average level but its very hard for any team to match up with him other than hope he misses his shots.

Thanks for the constructive reply.
Playing the Old-Head Card is never persuasive here, granted, but having said that (and perhaps you are an Old-Head too) but I saw practically every Reggie playoff run back in the day, and he never felt super scary, nothing like a KD or Steph or even Ray Allen, and even Larry Bird on a bad day was far more scary. Unless of course you are the Knicks, whereupon he is practically on NBA Mt. Rushmore of Knicks Doom haha.
Reggie was a great player.
But I am confident there are at least 75-90 greater players, if we balance (A) accolades/awards/MVP voting, with (B) regular season/playoffs, (C) eras, and (D) offense/defense roles (and not over-emphasize the scorers).

[Cavsfansince84]

Thanks for the constructive reply.
Playing the Old-Head Card is never persuasive here, granted, but having said that (and perhaps you are an Old-Head too) but I saw practically every Reggie playoff run back in the day, and he never felt super scary, nothing like a KD or Steph or even Ray Allen, and even Larry Bird on a bad day was far more scary. Unless of course you are the Knicks, whereupon he is practically on NBA Mt. Rushmore of Knicks Doom haha.
Reggie was a great player.
But I am confident there are at least 75-90 greater players, if we balance (A) accolades/awards/MVP voting, with (B) regular season/playoffs, (C) eras, and (D) offense/defense roles (and not over-emphasize the scorers).

I don't mind using accolades/mvp voting as a rough guideline for many players but to me Reggie is among those who this completely fails to appreciate and I know that just by watching him he doesn't stand out the many superstars do but the numbers back up him being a roughly top 10 player based on offensive impact imo. Keeping in mind that voters back in the 90's weren't really measuring offensive impact the way we do now. I was not much of a Reggie fan back in the day but as I've used more different tools that have come along in the last 10-15 years my opinion of him as a player has gone up a lot and sometimes we need to admit that voters just had no clue what they were doing at the time with some players. Much like they voted Latrell Sprewell 1st team all nba in 94 and kept awarding Kobe with 1st team all def year after year. I would have Reggie as easily a top 60 player of all time.

[Ginoboleee]

Thanks for the constructive reply.
Playing the Old-Head Card is never persuasive here, granted, but having said that (and perhaps you are an Old-Head too) but I saw practically every Reggie playoff run back in the day, and he never felt super scary, nothing like a KD or Steph or even Ray Allen, and even Larry Bird on a bad day was far more scary. Unless of course you are the Knicks, whereupon he is practically on NBA Mt. Rushmore of Knicks Doom haha.
Reggie was a great player.
But I am confident there are at least 75-90 greater players, if we balance (A) accolades/awards/MVP voting, with (B) regular season/playoffs, (C) eras, and (D) offense/defense roles (and not over-emphasize the scorers).

I don't mind using accolades/mvp voting as a rough guideline for many players but to me Reggie is among those who this completely fails to appreciate and I know that just by watching him he doesn't stand out the many superstars do but the numbers back up him being a roughly top 10 player based on offensive impact imo. Keeping in mind that voters back in the 90's weren't really measuring offensive impact the way we do now. I was not much of a Reggie fan back in the day but as I've used more different tools that have come along in the last 10-15 years my opinion of him as a player has gone up a lot and sometimes we need to admit that voters just had no clue what they were doing at the time with some players. Much like they voted Latrell Sprewell 1st team all nba in 94 and kept awarding Kobe with 1st team all def year after year. I would have Reggie as easily a top 60 player of all time.

Fair enough.
But I'd have traded him + a rando Pacer for Mark Price + Ron Harper. You can keep Ehlo. Maybe toss in Johnny Newman instead.

[Cavsfansince84]

Fair enough.
But I'd have traded him + a rando Pacer for Mark Price + Ron Harper. You can keep Ehlo. Maybe toss in Johnny Newman instead.

Cavs fans got robbed only seeing Price and Harper together for a couple of years.

[SickMother]

But I am confident there are at least 75-90 greater players, if we balance (A) accolades/awards/MVP voting, with (B) regular season/playoffs, (C) eras, and (D) offense/defense roles (and not over-emphasize the scorers).

Reggie is 18th in regular season Win Shares & 27th in playoff Win Shares for his career. By VORP he ranks 22nd RS & 27th POs. I realize no one stat perfectly encapsulates player value, but I don't believe the error bars are so large that there are easily 75-90 greater players than that.

There's no need to even get that fancy, Reggie's 47.619 career minutes are 12th all time and his .614 TS% is 14th all time. The best ability is availability & after that the object is to make the most efficient use of every possession. Reggie was elite in both regards.

[Ginoboleee]

Fair enough.
But I'd have traded him + a rando Pacer for Mark Price + Ron Harper. You can keep Ehlo. Maybe toss in Johnny Newman instead.

Cavs fans got robbed only seeing Price and Harper together for a couple of years.

Agreed. My playful point was that I was a Cavsfansince87 (#PriceFan).

[Ginoboleee]

But I am confident there are at least 75-90 greater players, if we balance (A) accolades/awards/MVP voting, with (B) regular season/playoffs, (C) eras, and (D) offense/defense roles (and not over-emphasize the scorers).

Reggie is 18th in regular season Win Shares & 27th in playoff Win Shares for his career. By VORP he ranks 22nd RS & 27th POs. I realize no one stat perfectly encapsulates player value, but I don't believe the error bars are so large that there are easily 75-90 greater players than that.

There's no need to even get that fancy, Reggie's 47.619 career minutes are 12th all time and his .614 TS% is 14th all time. The best ability is availability & after that the object is to make the most efficient use of every possession. Reggie was elite in both regards.

Thanks for the helpful evidence that Reggie "belongs".

I guess my point was that by using some traditional approaches (like All-NBA and MVP voting) Reggie looked easily outside the Top 75; while his other measures/stats make it a closer call. But if you discount quirky accolades then an analytics-approach looks like it heads in a very different direction, supporting his case, just as you shared.

Personally, as an analytics skeptic, I was just saying that it isn't that obvious.
Naturally, I recognize that a pro-analytics/objectivity approach is dominant here at PC.