Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG

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Which duo?

Curry/Gobert
19
45%
Lillard/KG
23
55%
 
Total votes: 42

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Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#1 » by rand » Sat Aug 6, 2022 10:30 am

Who would you take for one season in today's game, everyone in their prime.
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#2 » by CharityStripe34 » Sat Aug 6, 2022 11:12 am

Curry's improvement on defense makes this interesting. My instinct is to pick Garnett and Lillard for the versatility (thanks to Garnett).
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#3 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Aug 6, 2022 4:12 pm

I mean this feels trivially easy to take Curry/Gobert, no? The best offensive and defensive players of the current generation. And this is going to get some pushback, but Gobert is a better defensive player than KG was. And despite reputation, Gobert is also very much a plus offensive player, and no he doesn't get played off the court in the playoffs.
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#4 » by Jaivl » Sat Aug 6, 2022 6:25 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean this feels trivially easy to take Curry/Gobert, no? The best offensive and defensive players of the current generation.

Yeah, and1'd.

Texas Chuck wrote:And this is going to get some pushback, but Gobert is a better defensive player than KG was.

...hey you, give me my and1 back! Thief!
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#5 » by drza » Sat Aug 6, 2022 8:30 pm

The Curry/Gobert duo would be formidable. They'd be variations of the duos they've actually had in real-life, at least loosely. Curry has played with the only other defensive player on Gobert's tier in this generation, Draymond, while Gobert has played his prime next to another 6-2 lead/combo guard with excellent scoring ability. While Steph is a clear two steps up from every Donovan Mitchell that isn't facing the Nuggets in the playoffs, Gobert's strengths and weaknesses are different enough from Draymond's that "better" or "worse" isn't as clearly defined in a macro-sense...at least as defenders.

But, the devil is in the details. While I've argued (vociferously) this summer that the league doesn't realize the danger they're in now that Gobert has joined the Timberwolves, because at his best he really is THAT high of an impact player, I'd also say that the Steph/Gobert base doesn't have the upside of the Steph/Dray base. For a couple of main reasons:

1) In addition to his defense, Dray's ability to run the point on offense frees Steph up to be his best self on offense. Steph has a great handle, and he can run an offense, but don't so doesn't allow him to be the Megatron-level Steph that he can be when playing off Dray.

2) Gobert's defense can be compromised by certain matchups. Not nearly to the extent that the hype would suggest, after the Clippers used their small-ball line-up to "expose" him in the playoffs a couple years ago, but there is some truth in it. Certain teams, able to play certain ways, can reduce Gobert's defensive impact and make him closer to JAG than is optimal.

The KG/Lillard combo, on the other hand...has no real ceiling.

When I'm picking all-time teams, Lillard is almost the ideal choice to put on a team featuring KG. Steph might be the only clearly better option that I can think of. A point guard that can operate as his pick-and-roll/pop partner, that can score at volume off the open looks KG creates OR create good looks for KG in return is maximum synergy.

Troy Hudson, a career journeyman only a few years removed from the NBDL, was able to get hot and knock down open looks from deep downtown created by KG against the Lakers in the playoffs and play at a way-outsized level for his talent level.

Sam Cassell was elite at running the P&R and setting up his money midrange shot, and also at using that action to create great midrange looks for KG. When Sam was healthy, the combo was nigh ungaurdable and spearheaded an otherwise grossly untalented team to NBA Championship level.

Rajon Rondo was a floor general that couldn't shoot at all, and KG was past his prime by the time Rondo came into his own, but in that 2009 season (before KG's injury), we saw them use that P&R with KG consistently rolling, and I think I saw KG finish more alley-oops in that half a season than I saw him finish in his Timberwolves career.

Lillard is like the best aspects of all three, without any of the weaknesses.

His shooting range, accuracy and volume dwarfs anything Hudson was capable of. He could run the set as consistently and finish/create at as high a level as Cassell, but he could do so from behind the arc instead of in the midrange. And he could pull the defenses out so far that he could create easy finishing lanes for KG when he rolled, ala Rondo.

I'm trying to picture that '04 Wolves team, with Lillard in place of Cassell. Cassell was amazing that season, but Lillard just has more talent and his skillset (next to KG) would completely change the dynamics of how opponents would defend them. Once KG and Cassell found their level, they played at 60+ win pace until Cassell's injury. With Lillard in there, instead, and an average supporting cast (instead of the...below average...cast surrounding KG and Cassell in '04), 70-win/+10SRS capacity is a very realistic expectation for such a team's upside.

In addition, unlike the Steph/Gobert combo, there's no realistic opponent matchup that can be devised to blunt what they do. You couldn't run a precocious small-ball lineup out there and minimize KG's defensive effectiveness, the way you could with Gobert. Lillard running the show offensively wouldn't be the impediment to maximization, for him, that it would be for max Steph. Plus, KG (like Draymond) can carry enough floor generalship load to unlock even better elements of Lillard, the way that Dray does for Steph.

I don't know. With all respect to my gpeople Texas Chuck and Jaivl, to me this looks like a mismatch in the other direction. It's difficult for me to conceive of how this is even a challenging decision. As great as Steph/Gobert would be, it just seems like KG/Lillard would be magical.
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#6 » by falcolombardi » Sun Aug 7, 2022 6:00 am

drza wrote:The Curry/Gobert duo would be formidable. They'd be variations of the duos they've actually had in real-life, at least loosely. Curry has played with the only other defensive player on Gobert's tier in this generation, Draymond, while Gobert has played his prime next to another 6-2 lead/combo guard with excellent scoring ability. While Steph is a clear two steps up from every Donovan Mitchell that isn't facing the Nuggets in the playoffs, Gobert's strengths and weaknesses are different enough from Draymond's that "better" or "worse" isn't as clearly defined in a macro-sense...at least as defenders.

But, the devil is in the details. While I've argued (vociferously) this summer that the league doesn't realize the danger they're in now that Gobert has joined the Timberwolves, because at his best he really is THAT high of an impact player, I'd also say that the Steph/Gobert base doesn't have the upside of the Steph/Dray base. For a couple of main reasons:

1) In addition to his defense, Dray's ability to run the point on offense frees Steph up to be his best self on offense. Steph has a great handle, and he can run an offense, but don't so doesn't allow him to be the Megatron-level Steph that he can be when playing off Dray.

2) Gobert's defense can be compromised by certain matchups. Not nearly to the extent that the hype would suggest, after the Clippers used their small-ball line-up to "expose" him in the playoffs a couple years ago, but there is some truth in it. Certain teams, able to play certain ways, can reduce Gobert's defensive impact and make him closer to JAG than is optimal.

The KG/Lillard combo, on the other hand...has no real ceiling.

When I'm picking all-time teams, Lillard is almost the ideal choice to put on a team featuring KG. Steph might be the only clearly better option that I can think of. A point guard that can operate as his pick-and-roll/pop partner, that can score at volume off the open looks KG creates OR create good looks for KG in return is maximum synergy.

Troy Hudson, a career journeyman only a few years removed from the NBDL, was able to get hot and knock down open looks from deep downtown created by KG against the Lakers in the playoffs and play at a way-outsized level for his talent level.

Sam Cassell was elite at running the P&R and setting up his money midrange shot, and also at using that action to create great midrange looks for KG. When Sam was healthy, the combo was nigh ungaurdable and spearheaded an otherwise grossly untalented team to NBA Championship level.

Rajon Rondo was a floor general that couldn't shoot at all, and KG was past his prime by the time Rondo came into his own, but in that 2009 season (before KG's injury), we saw them use that P&R with KG consistently rolling, and I think I saw KG finish more alley-oops in that half a season than I saw him finish in his Timberwolves career.

Lillard is like the best aspects of all three, without any of the weaknesses.

His shooting range, accuracy and volume dwarfs anything Hudson was capable of. He could run the set as consistently and finish/create at as high a level as Cassell, but he could do so from behind the arc instead of in the midrange. And he could pull the defenses out so far that he could create easy finishing lanes for KG when he rolled, ala Rondo.

I'm trying to picture that '04 Wolves team, with Lillard in place of Cassell. Cassell was amazing that season, but Lillard just has more talent and his skillset (next to KG) would completely change the dynamics of how opponents would defend them. Once KG and Cassell found their level, they played at 60+ win pace until Cassell's injury. With Lillard in there, instead, and an average supporting cast (instead of the...below average...cast surrounding KG and Cassell in '04), 70-win/+10SRS capacity is a very realistic expectation for such a team's upside.

In addition, unlike the Steph/Gobert combo, there's no realistic opponent matchup that can be devised to blunt what they do. You couldn't run a precocious small-ball lineup out there and minimize KG's defensive effectiveness, the way you could with Gobert. Lillard running the show offensively wouldn't be the impediment to maximization, for him, that it would be for max Steph. Plus, KG (like Draymond) can carry enough floor generalship load to unlock even better elements of Lillard, the way that Dray does for Steph.

I don't know. With all respect to my gpeople Texas Chuck and Jaivl, to me this looks like a mismatch in the other direction. It's difficult for me to conceive of how this is even a challenging decision. As great as Steph/Gobert would be, it just seems like KG/Lillard would be magical.


Are you that high on the wolves? I am high om gobert but i oddly enough worry about their loss of beverley a bit
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#7 » by Colbinii » Sun Aug 7, 2022 1:57 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
drza wrote:The Curry/Gobert duo would be formidable. They'd be variations of the duos they've actually had in real-life, at least loosely. Curry has played with the only other defensive player on Gobert's tier in this generation, Draymond, while Gobert has played his prime next to another 6-2 lead/combo guard with excellent scoring ability. While Steph is a clear two steps up from every Donovan Mitchell that isn't facing the Nuggets in the playoffs, Gobert's strengths and weaknesses are different enough from Draymond's that "better" or "worse" isn't as clearly defined in a macro-sense...at least as defenders.

But, the devil is in the details. While I've argued (vociferously) this summer that the league doesn't realize the danger they're in now that Gobert has joined the Timberwolves, because at his best he really is THAT high of an impact player, I'd also say that the Steph/Gobert base doesn't have the upside of the Steph/Dray base. For a couple of main reasons:

1) In addition to his defense, Dray's ability to run the point on offense frees Steph up to be his best self on offense. Steph has a great handle, and he can run an offense, but don't so doesn't allow him to be the Megatron-level Steph that he can be when playing off Dray.

2) Gobert's defense can be compromised by certain matchups. Not nearly to the extent that the hype would suggest, after the Clippers used their small-ball line-up to "expose" him in the playoffs a couple years ago, but there is some truth in it. Certain teams, able to play certain ways, can reduce Gobert's defensive impact and make him closer to JAG than is optimal.

The KG/Lillard combo, on the other hand...has no real ceiling.

When I'm picking all-time teams, Lillard is almost the ideal choice to put on a team featuring KG. Steph might be the only clearly better option that I can think of. A point guard that can operate as his pick-and-roll/pop partner, that can score at volume off the open looks KG creates OR create good looks for KG in return is maximum synergy.

Troy Hudson, a career journeyman only a few years removed from the NBDL, was able to get hot and knock down open looks from deep downtown created by KG against the Lakers in the playoffs and play at a way-outsized level for his talent level.

Sam Cassell was elite at running the P&R and setting up his money midrange shot, and also at using that action to create great midrange looks for KG. When Sam was healthy, the combo was nigh ungaurdable and spearheaded an otherwise grossly untalented team to NBA Championship level.

Rajon Rondo was a floor general that couldn't shoot at all, and KG was past his prime by the time Rondo came into his own, but in that 2009 season (before KG's injury), we saw them use that P&R with KG consistently rolling, and I think I saw KG finish more alley-oops in that half a season than I saw him finish in his Timberwolves career.

Lillard is like the best aspects of all three, without any of the weaknesses.

His shooting range, accuracy and volume dwarfs anything Hudson was capable of. He could run the set as consistently and finish/create at as high a level as Cassell, but he could do so from behind the arc instead of in the midrange. And he could pull the defenses out so far that he could create easy finishing lanes for KG when he rolled, ala Rondo.

I'm trying to picture that '04 Wolves team, with Lillard in place of Cassell. Cassell was amazing that season, but Lillard just has more talent and his skillset (next to KG) would completely change the dynamics of how opponents would defend them. Once KG and Cassell found their level, they played at 60+ win pace until Cassell's injury. With Lillard in there, instead, and an average supporting cast (instead of the...below average...cast surrounding KG and Cassell in '04), 70-win/+10SRS capacity is a very realistic expectation for such a team's upside.

In addition, unlike the Steph/Gobert combo, there's no realistic opponent matchup that can be devised to blunt what they do. You couldn't run a precocious small-ball lineup out there and minimize KG's defensive effectiveness, the way you could with Gobert. Lillard running the show offensively wouldn't be the impediment to maximization, for him, that it would be for max Steph. Plus, KG (like Draymond) can carry enough floor generalship load to unlock even better elements of Lillard, the way that Dray does for Steph.

I don't know. With all respect to my gpeople Texas Chuck and Jaivl, to me this looks like a mismatch in the other direction. It's difficult for me to conceive of how this is even a challenging decision. As great as Steph/Gobert would be, it just seems like KG/Lillard would be magical.


Are you that high on the wolves? I am high om gobert but i oddly enough worry about their loss of beverley a bit


Why?

Beverley helped change culture in Minnesota--I dont see the culture reverting back to old ways under a great coach and players who have now tasted what is it like to be in the post-season.

Do you think you would be worried about the 2018 Rockets since they replaced Beverley with CP3?

Were you really worried in 2022 about the Clippers no longer being title contenders after trading Beverley?
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#8 » by drza » Sun Aug 7, 2022 2:49 pm

I think Beverley was good for the Timberwolves, and that if given the choice they would've kept him. But, as Colbini pointed out, I think what they got in return was a massive global upgrade. It's really all about how it comes together. In a perfect world. Towns is able to transition seamlessly to power forward, which may not be so much of a leap since Vanderbilt really played more like a center for them last season anyway. Gobert is stylistically comparable to Vanderbilt, just dramatically better. If Towns is able to play full-time PF defense...which will be a challenge...then the Timberwolves will be a problem.

Towns and Gobert already mesh well on offense, and as a side benefit, Towns' presence will make it difficult for defenses to try to small-ball Rudy off the court in the playoffs, because he and Towns should be able to punish that type of unit at both end, and especially on the glass, in a way that Gobert's Jazz weren't able to.

And the elephant in the room is Anthony Edwards. Towns and Gobert have the upside to be the best two-way big man combo in the NBA, but Edwards is in year 3 and has All NBA upside as a wing. If he achieves it, with that frontline...yeah, I'm really high on the Wolves' potential if this thing comes together the way I think it will.
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#9 » by falcolombardi » Sun Aug 7, 2022 7:38 pm

Colbinii wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
drza wrote:The Curry/Gobert duo would be formidable. They'd be variations of the duos they've actually had in real-life, at least loosely. Curry has played with the only other defensive player on Gobert's tier in this generation, Draymond, while Gobert has played his prime next to another 6-2 lead/combo guard with excellent scoring ability. While Steph is a clear two steps up from every Donovan Mitchell that isn't facing the Nuggets in the playoffs, Gobert's strengths and weaknesses are different enough from Draymond's that "better" or "worse" isn't as clearly defined in a macro-sense...at least as defenders.

But, the devil is in the details. While I've argued (vociferously) this summer that the league doesn't realize the danger they're in now that Gobert has joined the Timberwolves, because at his best he really is THAT high of an impact player, I'd also say that the Steph/Gobert base doesn't have the upside of the Steph/Dray base. For a couple of main reasons:

1) In addition to his defense, Dray's ability to run the point on offense frees Steph up to be his best self on offense. Steph has a great handle, and he can run an offense, but don't so doesn't allow him to be the Megatron-level Steph that he can be when playing off Dray.

2) Gobert's defense can be compromised by certain matchups. Not nearly to the extent that the hype would suggest, after the Clippers used their small-ball line-up to "expose" him in the playoffs a couple years ago, but there is some truth in it. Certain teams, able to play certain ways, can reduce Gobert's defensive impact and make him closer to JAG than is optimal.

The KG/Lillard combo, on the other hand...has no real ceiling.

When I'm picking all-time teams, Lillard is almost the ideal choice to put on a team featuring KG. Steph might be the only clearly better option that I can think of. A point guard that can operate as his pick-and-roll/pop partner, that can score at volume off the open looks KG creates OR create good looks for KG in return is maximum synergy.

Troy Hudson, a career journeyman only a few years removed from the NBDL, was able to get hot and knock down open looks from deep downtown created by KG against the Lakers in the playoffs and play at a way-outsized level for his talent level.

Sam Cassell was elite at running the P&R and setting up his money midrange shot, and also at using that action to create great midrange looks for KG. When Sam was healthy, the combo was nigh ungaurdable and spearheaded an otherwise grossly untalented team to NBA Championship level.

Rajon Rondo was a floor general that couldn't shoot at all, and KG was past his prime by the time Rondo came into his own, but in that 2009 season (before KG's injury), we saw them use that P&R with KG consistently rolling, and I think I saw KG finish more alley-oops in that half a season than I saw him finish in his Timberwolves career.

Lillard is like the best aspects of all three, without any of the weaknesses.

His shooting range, accuracy and volume dwarfs anything Hudson was capable of. He could run the set as consistently and finish/create at as high a level as Cassell, but he could do so from behind the arc instead of in the midrange. And he could pull the defenses out so far that he could create easy finishing lanes for KG when he rolled, ala Rondo.

I'm trying to picture that '04 Wolves team, with Lillard in place of Cassell. Cassell was amazing that season, but Lillard just has more talent and his skillset (next to KG) would completely change the dynamics of how opponents would defend them. Once KG and Cassell found their level, they played at 60+ win pace until Cassell's injury. With Lillard in there, instead, and an average supporting cast (instead of the...below average...cast surrounding KG and Cassell in '04), 70-win/+10SRS capacity is a very realistic expectation for such a team's upside.

In addition, unlike the Steph/Gobert combo, there's no realistic opponent matchup that can be devised to blunt what they do. You couldn't run a precocious small-ball lineup out there and minimize KG's defensive effectiveness, the way you could with Gobert. Lillard running the show offensively wouldn't be the impediment to maximization, for him, that it would be for max Steph. Plus, KG (like Draymond) can carry enough floor generalship load to unlock even better elements of Lillard, the way that Dray does for Steph.

I don't know. With all respect to my gpeople Texas Chuck and Jaivl, to me this looks like a mismatch in the other direction. It's difficult for me to conceive of how this is even a challenging decision. As great as Steph/Gobert would be, it just seems like KG/Lillard would be magical.


Are you that high on the wolves? I am high om gobert but i oddly enough worry about their loss of beverley a bit


Why?

Beverley helped change culture in Minnesota--I dont see the culture reverting back to old ways under a great coach and players who have now tasted what is it like to be in the post-season.

Do you think you would be worried about the 2018 Rockets since they replaced Beverley with CP3?

Were you really worried in 2022 about the Clippers no longer being title contenders after trading Beverley?


I consider myself high on gobert and i agree the wolves will improve with the trade off as gobert is easily a better player than beverley

I just thought that beverley was arguably their third most important player over d'angelo, specially in the playoffs and his role and leadership was key to making the wolves a playoff team.

So gobert is not being added to the 2021 wolves that made the playoffs. He is being added to a weaker version of last year wolves. (Of course edwards and maybe towns can take steps up too which is key to making wolves a contender)

I dont know if gobert is enough to take a weaker version of last year wolves to favorite-ish status (which is what drza comment seemed to imply that wolves should be among the biggest title favorites)

I think they are a puncher chance contender but not enough to be seen as a favorite

That said i HOPE they beat all my expectatives, would love to see gobert "redeemed" in the public eye
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#10 » by Colbinii » Sun Aug 7, 2022 9:01 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Are you that high on the wolves? I am high om gobert but i oddly enough worry about their loss of beverley a bit


Why?

Beverley helped change culture in Minnesota--I dont see the culture reverting back to old ways under a great coach and players who have now tasted what is it like to be in the post-season.

Do you think you would be worried about the 2018 Rockets since they replaced Beverley with CP3?

Were you really worried in 2022 about the Clippers no longer being title contenders after trading Beverley?


I consider myself high on gobert and i agree the wolves will improve with the trade off as gobert is easily a better player than beverley

I just thought that beverley was arguably their third most important player over d'angelo, specially in the playoffs and his role and leadership was key to making the wolves a playoff team.

So gobert is not being added to the 2021 wolves that made the playoffs. He is being added to a weaker version of last year wolves. (Of course edwards and maybe towns can take steps up too which is key to making wolves a contender)

I dont know if gobert is enough to take a weaker version of last year wolves to favorite-ish status (which is what drza comment seemed to imply that wolves should be among the biggest title favorites)

I think they are a puncher chance contender but not enough to be seen as a favorite

That said i HOPE they beat all my expectatives, would love to see gobert "redeemed" in the public eye


I wouldn't consider the Wolves any weaker this season [simply speaking of the roster minus Gobert].

They added SlowMo.
They added bench depth to help during the regular season.
Their young players in Nowell, Edwards and McDaniels should all be taking steps forward given the typical career trajectory/curve of players of their age.

The Utah Jazz the past 2 seasons were 5.67 and 8.97 SRS teams. Those teams, specifically 2021, had Mitchell missing 19 games and Conley 21 games.

If you compare the players, I would relatively easily take Towns over Mitchell [not all may think this way], Edwards over Conley and then the depth of Minnesota over Utah. Admittedly all are close.
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Re: Curry/Gobert vs Lillard/KG 

Post#11 » by JordansBulls » Mon Aug 8, 2022 2:31 am

The type of contracts that Lillard and KG will demand will handicap anything else you could do. KG highest contract for a long time and Dame now going to be getting 60 million year.
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