Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan?

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Bigger Gap?

Duncan's defense advantage
6
16%
Kareem's offensive advantage
31
84%
 
Total votes: 37

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Re: Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan? 

Post#41 » by Frosty » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:02 pm

capfan33 wrote:One thing I realized from earlier in regards to Frosty's statement that Duncan wasn't a lock-down man defender. Independent of whether that's true or not help defense, especially for bigs, is much more important than man-defense and Duncan generally excelled at this. So I disagree with the framing of that statement.


I never argued otherwise. I'm saying you can look at Kareem's scoring individually or as part of the teams offense as a whole. I think his individual offense stands on it's own accord as he was one of the best ever.

On defense you generally look at either lock down defenders or team defenders. Duncan clearly fits in the second camp and is fantastic at this. Once you go the team argument route you have to explain why when a guy is considered the "anchor" that the boat doesn't drift when it is un-anchored. It's pretty hard to dismiss.

I'm not saying he wasn't a great defender. I'm saying he would have to be other worldly to account for the difference in offense, and I just don't see that.

It's unfortunate others are framing this as a 'hater' argument, it feels like the Kobe fans from his prime.
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Re: Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan? 

Post#42 » by 70sFan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:33 pm

Frosty wrote:
70sFan wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:My original statement was that D-Rob and Malik Rose guarded Shaq more than Duncan did in that series. If you are trying to say otherwise, then I'm sorry but you are just wrong. Re-watch that 2002-03 series if you have to. Even 70'sFan will agree with me here. D-Rob and Rose took on that assignment in turns, which is why their minutes were split like that so evenly.

I will rewatch all 2001-03 series when I find enough time to get an overall view on how much Duncan guarded Shaq with clear numbers. I know that he was Shaq's main defender in 2002 series, which is why you always ignore this series, focusing on 2003 instead.

Duncan was significantly better at guarding Shaq than Robinson by the way. Admiral rarely did a good job on him to be honest and it's him who needed a lot of help.


No he wasn't at all. He took Shaq at times when Robinson was off, so did Malik. But he was not his primary defender. Check how many times when their defense is set up that Duncan gets assigned to Shaq.


Robinson didn't play for the majority of the series. I watched these games, I dom have to look at the highlights.

Having that said, I will rewatch all these 2001-03 series and try to track the Shaq matchups.
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Re: Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan? 

Post#43 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:45 pm

Outside wrote:Again, Duncan was very good offensively, but the gap between Kareem and Duncan is significant. No such gap exists in Duncan's favor on the defensive side.


Sure it does. Unless you think Kareem was still the same level of defender his last 8-10 years. He wasn't a liability until the very end, but he was no longer the impact defender he was in the 70's. Duncan was still very much an elite defender into his late 30's.

Like you, I think the answer is clearly Kareem based on peak/prime, but I would take issue that Duncan doesn't have a significant defensive edge over Kareem for their careers. Not as big as Kareem's offensive edge, but still a quite meaningful one.
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Re: Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan? 

Post#44 » by Texas Chuck » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:52 pm

Frosty wrote:It's unfortunate others are framing this as a 'hater' argument, it feels like the Kobe fans from his prime.


I'll take responsibility for that. And I'm sorry if that wasn't you intent, but check out this portion of your post:

Frosty wrote: I'm sure Kareem would have loved a career where someone else took the toughest defensive assignment allowing him to be a help defender while being guarded by undersized power forwards on offense. (not saying you are doing it but you are tip toeing around it)



I mean this reads like "hater" talk. I disagree with you wholeheartedly on your assertion that the Spurs defense wasn't centered around Tim Duncan, but okay. We can disagree on that and that's okay. But this isn't a defensible statement and it comes across as just at attempt to diminish a player by inventing a narrative.

So seeing that, it becomes hard not to frame your entire argument though that lens. Sorry, but that's how it comes across.
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Re: Bigger Gap: Duncan's Defensive edge over Kareem vs Kareem's Offensive edge over Duncan? 

Post#45 » by falcolombardi » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:02 pm

Tim duncan won rings alongside fabricio oberto, rasho nesterovic and 38 years old robinson

All those rings were won on the back of great defense

Neither of those guys, not even the older admiral were exactly carrying the defense out there

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