What made player A better than player B?

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What made player A better than player B? 

Post#1 » by falcolombardi » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:12 pm

Sometimes there are cases of players who at a glance seem to have similar skillsets/builds/approaches to the game. Sometimes even similar boxscore stats

Yet one clearly has better impact (at least postseason wise) thanks to somewhat subtle differences that wouldnt be obvious at first

One example is kawhi vs paul george. Both great athletes, both huge lenght wings. Smooth pull ups. Can shoot across the court, great defenders

So why is kawhi so clearly a level ahead? I think is about kawhi strenght and ball grip which makes his handle so much tighter getting to his spots but others may have a different view

What are cases of superficially similar players where one clearly pulls ahead in impact?
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#2 » by tsherkin » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:34 pm

falcolombardi wrote:So why is kawhi so clearly a level ahead? I think is about kawhi strenght and ball grip which makes his handle so much tighter getting to his spots but others may have a different view


Strength and grip help. Kawhi has a more robust mid-range game, and he's a better offensive rebounder. He's a little more compact, and they don't call him The Claw for nothing, hehe. Better ball-control mid-air, handles contact better, etc. Tighter handle, even if he keeps relatively simple (though that is itself a strength). Better base under him, too; George has a very long-limbed build.

That's all very simplistic, of course, but yeah. Kawhi's... better. Upstairs and with a better basketball body.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#3 » by parsnips33 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:03 pm

Love this topic, and it gets at why I enjoy watching the current iteration of the Clippers so much

Kawhi and PG are so similar in so many ways that their differences become more pronounced

Kawhi is definitely stronger and more methodical about getting to his spots offensively. Can deal with physical defense much better than PG. Defensively, harder to move off his spot

PG is much more fluid on both ends - he has an easier time keeping up with guys off ball and can navigate screens. Offensively, he plays more like a guard - creating largely out of the PNR or off-ball screening and quick to go to a pull-up
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#4 » by tsherkin » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:05 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Kawhi is definitely stronger and more methodical about getting to his spots offensively.


Underrated trait, that. Not just free-flowing and letting the D dictate what he wants. Like MJ, among others, finding ways to get to what he specifically wants.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#5 » by falcolombardi » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:14 pm

I used kawhi/george as examples but the thread doesnt need to be limited to that example

Do you guys can think of other players this applies to?
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#6 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:24 pm

I think mental toughness and being able to handle pressure is definitely a factor. I think we as fans or in an evaluation sort of mode probably can't appreciate at all the pressure that comes with playing a big playoff game in front of a 20k crowd and 10-20m people on tv on top of all the pressure that develops over the course of a season and a career with all the media coverage. I have absolutely no idea what that's like to deal with as a pro athlete but I'm 100% positive it plays into how guys perform on the court. Using Kawhi, he just seems to be able to focus all of that out really well and his shooting(especially from 3) in the playoffs really bears this out. Luka is another one who just seems really comfortable on the big stage and then you have MJ who took and made a championship winning shot as a freshman at unc. It a combination of confidence and managing pressure.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#7 » by parsnips33 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:54 pm

Embiid vs Towns is an interesting one.

Both super skilled bigs with shooting range, but Embiid is so much better at using his body and positioning himself BEFORE he gets the ball
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#8 » by tsherkin » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:03 am

parsnips33 wrote:Embiid vs Towns is an interesting one.

Both super skilled bigs with shooting range, but Embiid is so much better at using his body and positioning himself BEFORE he gets the ball


Embiid is also a flopping menace, heh. But also a much better mid-range shooter, and of course he is physically larger.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#9 » by Bad Gatorade » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:25 am

A couple of PG examples -

John Wall vs Westbrook - Wall is probably the better defensive player, probably the slightly better passer, probably a bit worse at shooting back when Westbrook knew how to shoot, both insane athletes etc. I feel like Westbrook was very slightly better in most scoring facets (a bit better at finishing, a bit better at shooting, a bit more aggressive and havoc-wreaking) but none of those facets feel like a big gap. Some of it was also probably team strategy deliberately facilitating Westbrook starting the break by getting lots of rebounds :D (disclaimer - I do believe that the strategy actually worked pretty well)

Jason Kidd vs Ricky Rubio - Rubio is also a fantastic defensive PG, terrific passing/vision, can both hit jumpers reasonably well when given space, but neither is known as a scorer. Yet one has never been an All Star (and never really considered a "snub" either) and the other is quite arguably a top 40 guy all time, lol. I think Kidd is a bit more dynamic on drives and a slightly better finisher. The gap isn't that big between these guys though, right? Jaivl, back me up!
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#10 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:41 am

Bad Gatorade wrote:Jason Kidd vs Ricky Rubio - Rubio is also a fantastic defensive PG, terrific passing/vision, can both hit jumpers reasonably well when given space, but neither is known as a scorer. Yet one has never been an All Star (and never really considered a "snub" either) and the other is quite arguably a top 40 guy all time, lol. I think Kidd is a bit more dynamic on drives and a slightly better finisher. The gap isn't that big between these guys though, right? Jaivl, back me up!


I really like Rubio.

But the gap is huge. And it goes to my answer to the OP. It's not necessary size or strength or athleticism or even specific skillsets. It's just some guys just understand basketball, process basketball in ways mere mortals can't. Kidd imo might be the smartest player at both ends in NBA history. Not that he's the smartest defender or the smartest offensive player, but a guy who was so incredibly smart at both ends and maybe the best transition player of all-time.

Kidd's basketball brain was up there with Bird or Lebron. Doesn't have the skill or size of either and not the athleticism of Lebron so he's not the player they were, but he was just so far ahead of everyone else all the time. I think because he played in Dallas for a bunch of years that I have such an appreciation for that. I think he's a player you really have to watch play every night to really appreciate just all the ways he manipulated the game to his team's favor over and over again.

Rubio is a smart player, with solid skills. But not in Kidd's league, sorry.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#11 » by Bad Gatorade » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:16 am

Texas Chuck wrote:I really like Rubio.

But the gap is huge. And it goes to my answer to the OP. It's not necessary size or strength or athleticism or even specific skillsets. It's just some guys just understand basketball, process basketball in ways mere mortals can't. Kidd imo might be the smartest player at both ends in NBA history. Not that he's the smartest defender or the smartest offensive player, but a guy who was so incredibly smart at both ends and maybe the best transition player of all-time.

Kidd's basketball brain was up there with Bird or Lebron. Doesn't have the skill or size of either and not the athleticism of Lebron so he's not the player they were, but he was just so far ahead of everyone else all the time. I think because he played in Dallas for a bunch of years that I have such an appreciation for that. I think he's a player you really have to watch play every night to really appreciate just all the ways he manipulated the game to his team's favor over and over again.

Rubio is a smart player, with solid skills. But not in Kidd's league, sorry.


FWIW, I didn't say they were in the same tier, just that the gap between 0 all star berths and finishing 2nd in MVP voting feels much larger than the "actual" gap between these guys - to me, anyway. Rubio's health is quite obviously a factor though. Kidd's brain was utterly brilliant (FWIW, I think Rubio's brain is rather excellent too).

I actually think that your primary defence for Kidd (Kidd goes somewhere, team becomes good) works pretty well for Rubio. He joined Minnesota, and Minnesota improved quite a bit. Phoenix became a surprisingly good team with Rubio, the Cavs had a surprising turnaround with Rubio and Utah remained good once Rubio joined in 2018, even though Gobert missed 1/3 of the season. Really impressive plus minus numbers from Rubio too.

What I'm getting at more is that Kidd's archetype as a PG (great passer, great defender, so-so scorer) is probably underappreciated relative to how Kidd is perceived himself. The perception gap between Kidd/Rubio is incredibly vast, to the point where we could easily put Rubio up a tier or two, and Kidd is still perceived as the "clearly" better player.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#12 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:30 am

Bad Gatorade wrote:
I actually think that your primary defence for Kidd (Kidd goes somewhere, team becomes good) works pretty well for Rubio. He joined Minnesota, and Minnesota improved quite a bit. Phoenix became a surprisingly good team with Rubio, the Cavs had a surprising turnaround with Rubio and Utah remained good once Rubio joined in 2018, even though Gobert missed 1/3 of the season. Really impressive plus minus numbers from Rubio too.



Agree. I think Rubio has been a great mentor for some talented young players. Not only did he clearly help those teams on the court with his play, but I think he relates well to his teammates and has been willing to share what he knows with teammates. Cleveland signing him to a pretty decent contract this off-season even knowing he won't be ready to go I think speaks to the value he brings even when he can't play.

I realize also I am higher than Kidd than I think everyone else here? I'm really really high on him. Like Magic and Oscar are the only PG's (not counting Lebron as a PG) I would for sure say had a better career than him. Now I'm pretty sure push comes to shove I'd hae to give Curry the edge at this point, and Paul and Stockton certainly have strong cases, and Nash too if one values peak more than me. But I am really high on Kidd. For all the reasons so many of us are so high on KG--his impact on winning has been enormous even if his teams only won it all the once. And that lifting of team is the only thing that really matters to me. Not stats, not any specific skills.

But I wasn't trying to minimize Rubio. Definitely an underrated player. And I wonder if part of that is when he was drafted the talk was this was this flashy guy with all these highlight passes and the reality of Rubio has been a very solid player, with some flair to be sure, but just solid in so many areas.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#13 » by falcolombardi » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:08 am

Texas Chuck wrote:
Bad Gatorade wrote:
I actually think that your primary defence for Kidd (Kidd goes somewhere, team becomes good) works pretty well for Rubio. He joined Minnesota, and Minnesota improved quite a bit. Phoenix became a surprisingly good team with Rubio, the Cavs had a surprising turnaround with Rubio and Utah remained good once Rubio joined in 2018, even though Gobert missed 1/3 of the season. Really impressive plus minus numbers from Rubio too.



Agree. I think Rubio has been a great mentor for some talented young players. Not only did he clearly help those teams on the court with his play, but I think he relates well to his teammates and has been willing to share what he knows with teammates. Cleveland signing him to a pretty decent contract this off-season even knowing he won't be ready to go I think speaks to the value he brings even when he can't play.

I realize also I am higher than Kidd than I think everyone else here? I'm really really high on him. Like Magic and Oscar are the only PG's (not counting Lebron as a PG) I would for sure say had a better career than him. Now I'm pretty sure push comes to shove I'd hae to give Curry the edge at this point, and Paul and Stockton certainly have strong cases, and Nash too if one values peak more than me. But I am really high on Kidd. For all the reasons so many of us are so high on KG--his impact on winning has been enormous even if his teams only won it all the once. And that lifting of team is the only thing that really matters to me. Not stats, not any specific skills.

But I wasn't trying to minimize Rubio. Definitely an underrated player. And I wonder if part of that is when he was drafted the talk was this was this flashy guy with all these highlight passes and the reality of Rubio has been a very solid player, with some flair to be sure, but just solid in so many areas.



I actually wonder if kidd wouldnt be less respected today too. Defense/passing/rebounding heavy smart players who dont score much dont get as much respect these days

The wes unselds/jason kidds/draymond greens or at a lesser level the joakim noahs of the world.

Wes unseld probably never wins a mvp today with his stats even if he lapped the field in impact metrics and you can kind of see this with draymond who is not seen as a "real" star by most basketball fans

Draymond and gobert have years where their impact metrics say "mvp contender" but nobody takes them seriously as one the way kidd was

I think jason kidd playing today just wouldnt get the same appreciation

Oddly enough i feel at times like the era of impact metrics has made the general public lower rather than higher on these kind of players. As people "lash out" when nerd stats like +/- tell them a guy who scores 10 points a game is a star or close to it
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#14 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:18 am

I find it telling how many posters on this board accept Wiggins as a star over Dray. And this board is a lot more knowledgable about basketball. It isn't age. It is somewhat, still, the impact of the pre-draft hype but the biggest factor is Wiggins has a high PPG. And for many fans that is the threshold.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#15 » by ronnymac2 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 2:33 am

I feel like Kobe and T-Mac is the best example of what OP was talking about.
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Re: What made player A better than player B? 

Post#16 » by tsherkin » Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:01 am

falcolombardi wrote:I actually wonder if kidd wouldnt be less respected today too. Defense/passing/rebounding heavy smart players who dont score much dont get as much respect these days


I figure it would be about the same, if his team success was similar. I think having him be a weak scorer is probably MORE of a problem in the current environment, given relative team offenses and his inability to contribute as much to that as can some other profiles... but he was a smart player. I wonder if he'd be looked at less as a focal player, however, the way people did in his own time, and more of a complement.

The era difference is of consequence. With the league slowed down as much as it did in the late 90s and early 2000s, with league-wide offensive efficacy at like a 25-year nadir and defense as a major focus, Kidd's particular skill set made a lot of sense. He enabled others very well, he rebounded well to push tempo and he was a significant defensive force. Kidd was really good in that environment. The Nets weren't even that fast, they just topped the league in defense in 03, and were good enough on O that they were competitive in the East. And like, unless we think Kenyon Martin was a DPOY-level player, then it was clearly the Marbury-for-Kidd trade that turned around New Jersey's defense.

I've always found it tough to get a bead on Kidd. Not an ATG offensive player, but his defense was very good and his playmaking was good. I think you're right, though; I think there's a large emphasis on offense and that non-elite offensive players don't get as much love as they probably should. And there's a lot of emphasis on being the focal offensive player, instead of respecting players who can fit into a team and add value without being the dominant star.

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