Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson?

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tsherkin
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Re: Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson? 

Post#41 » by tsherkin » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:20 pm

Stalwart wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:
Stalwart wrote:
I used the extreme example to illustrate a point not to be dishonest. One poster was putting forth arguments for Reggie beng a top 20 player of all time and none of the PC regulars batted an eye.
There were also other posters putting him in the top 25. And there were still others putting him in the top 35.

All of that is ridiculous. Several people pointed out that you guys were wildly overrating Reggie not just me.


The way you framed it was dishonest though. Its also not our collective duty to argue against everything you view as ridiculous. That's your job. Most of the same posters in that thread voted in the last top 100 where Miller came in at 39. So that's more or less how the board views his career. Not top 20.


I think you're intentionally being disagreeable at this point. And who said it was anyones collective duty to respond to me? I certaintly didn't say that or suggest it. Thats a very dishonest thing to do.

Anyway, #39 is still ridiculous. PC posters are most likely relying on the analysis of professional theorists like Ben Taylor to come to that conclusion.


Boys, c'mon. Let's focus on West and Robertson, not whatever the hell this argument is about.
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Re: Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson? 

Post#42 » by capfan33 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:48 pm

Stalwart wrote:Neither one of them were better than Kobe. Thats just your typical PC Board hipster take. Id put Jerry over Oscar though.


Relative to era West was pretty easily better than Kobe at his peak. Career wise I'd give Kobe the edge however.
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Re: Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson? 

Post#43 » by 70sFan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:41 pm

Stalwart wrote:Yes, its ridiculous. I don't revere Ben Taylor the way you guys do. He's a theorist and a philosopher not some overarching authority on the game of basketball.

The fact that you use words "phiosopher and theorist" as insults shows in how bad shape our society is at this point. Seriously, being a theorist isn't about living in fantasy world, you know?

I just graduated Masters at physics and I will likely end up as a theorist in my future. It's so frustrating when people don't take your job seriously.


Everytime I see one of you guys throw his name out like some trump card I have even less reverence for him.

It's not rational way of thinking, if that's true. I didn't use him as some trump card, I used his work as an example of reasonable analysis. You can disagree with him, but it doesn't mean he's unreasonable.

Ive watched the Nba for over 30 years and have seen so many players better than Reggie Miller. Its not even close. And thats not even mentioning career and resume. If you bring those aspects into the equation(which you should) you would have a really tough time putting him higher than top 60.

Your definition of "better" is very fuzzy. You never actually explained how you evaluate who is a better player without using accolades. I have no idea what you mean by 60 players being better than him.
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Re: Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson? 

Post#44 » by Stalwart » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:08 pm

70sFan wrote:
Stalwart wrote:Yes, its ridiculous. I don't revere Ben Taylor the way you guys do. He's a theorist and a philosopher not some overarching authority on the game of basketball.

The fact that you use words "phiosopher and theorist" as insults shows in how bad shape our society is at this point. Seriously, being a theorist isn't about living in fantasy world, you know?


But it often times is. Unless of course you develop theories which are falsifiable and you have them peer reviewed. But at that point you become a scientist. Is Ben Taylor a scientist?

I think the problem with our society is quite the opposite. Too many people view theories as truth and it is indeed leading to an ever growing fantasy world, a house of cards even, for those who think this way. Theories are just theories until they are proven or shown to be true. At that point they cease to be theories and start being facts.

And I wasn't using those words as insults. I was making the point that Ben Taylors work is subjective which means its only as good as its underlying premise, values, assumptions, ect. Which is true for much of the analytics field.

I just graduated Masters at physics and I will likely end up as a theorist in my future. It's so frustrating when people don't take your job seriously.


Congratulations!


It's not rational way of thinking, if that's true. I didn't use him as some trump card, I used his work as an example of reasonable analysis. You can disagree with him, but it doesn't mean he's unreasonable.

Ive watched the Nba for over 30 years and have seen so many players better than Reggie Miller. Its not even close. And thats not even mentioning career and resume. If you bring those aspects into the equation(which you should) you would have a really tough time putting him higher than top 60.

Your definition of "better" is very fuzzy. You never actually explained how you evaluate who is a better player without using accolades. I have no idea what you mean by 60 players being better than him.


I am talking all time rankings. There are 60+ players with a stronger combination of team success, individual success, statistics, intangibles, and impact on the sport and league. But if you ignore all of these things in favor of analytical theories well then anything is possible. Why not just throw him in the top 20?
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Re: Who's better between jerry west and oscar robertson? 

Post#45 » by 70sFan » Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:47 am

Stalwart wrote:But it often times is. Unless of course you develop theories which are falsifiable and you have them peer reviewed. But at that point you become a scientist. Is Ben Taylor a scientist?

No, Ben isn't a scientist in a strict sense. He does develop theories that has been falsified all the time on the court. It's not about his rankings (which are the least important part of his job), it's about evaluation process and big concepts. Sport is not a science, but people use a lot of scientific models to get a better grasp at what is happening on the basketball court.

It's similar to studies like sociology - it's not really a science but it used a lot of scientific methods to get a better view at the subject.


I think the problem with our society is quite the opposite. Too many people view theories as truth and it is indeed leading to an ever growing fantasy world, a house of cards even, for those who think this way. Theories are just theories until they are proven or shown to be true. At that point they cease to be theories and start being facts.

You mistake theories with hypothesis. Scientific theories are already falsified within a scientific method limitations. It seems that you have no idea how scientists work, no wonder why you think we have some imaginary problem. The problem with authority is that people don't listen them anymore, everybody believe that he understands the world better than the rest. If you don't see the authority problem today, then it proves my point actually.

And I wasn't using those words as insults. I was making the point that Ben Taylors work is subjective which means its only as good as its underlying premise, values, assumptions, ect. Which is true for much of the analytics field.

Taylor's conclusions are completely subjective (which is always the case, even in scientific studies), but his models and evaluation process is significantly closer to objectivity than what you do on this board. This so-called "analytics field" makes everything less subjecitve, they limit assumptions and premises to minimum. Without them, we'll stay at the level of "I see he's good, so he's good".

Sport isn't that important in absolute terms fortunately, but I don't think you understand how massive impact analytical thinking has on our society, on all levels basically. If you decide to shut down it, we would come back in time to the beginnings of human spiecies.

Congratulations!

Thanks, but again - most people likely won't treat my job seriously. In the end, I will only work with theories - right?

I am talking all time rankings. There are 60+ players with a stronger combination of team success, individual success, statistics, intangibles, and impact on the sport and league. But if you ignore all of these things in favor of analytical theories well then anything is possible. Why not just throw him in the top 20?

What is individual success? What are statistics? What are intangibles? Why do you think that other players are better than Miller at that? Why do you think that "analytical theories" don't capture some of that?

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