Is Kawhi's career undervalued?

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

f4p
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,764
And1: 1,781
Joined: Sep 19, 2021
 

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#21 » by f4p » Wed Aug 10, 2022 6:42 am

MyUniBroDavis wrote:People underrate him as a talent for sure, he was a genuine DPOY level perimeter defender in 2016 and if he’s healthy we probably see his peak offense and near peak defense come together

He’s definately underrated offensively, he’s fully been incredible offensively 3/4 of his last playoff runs when he played he just got hurt in two of them

If Kawhi never got hurt you could probably make a pretty strong argument he’s on the bron Curry tier 2015-2022 (if he wins in 2021)


healthy kawhi would be a ways above curry and maybe on lebron's level (though i'm not sure anyone is on lebron's level). if he stays healthy, you could easily argue his dominant 2019 title run is only his 3rd best playoffs of his last 4 appearances, and it's not even like he sucked in 2020 until the horrible game 7. and obviously, if healthy, he would have had a 2018 playoff run.
OhayoKD
Head Coach
Posts: 6,042
And1: 3,932
Joined: Jun 22, 2022

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#22 » by OhayoKD » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:15 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke


I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?



My underlined sentence covers it. He's played on great teams his entire career. You can make a case no one in NBA history has had it better than him.

The 2020 Raptors went 53-19, ECSF G7 loss down by 2 with a minute to go. That is a great team. The year before he arrived they went 59-23. Admittedly got crushed by Cleveland but this is a lot better than the average superstar gets. Even the blessed superstars like Magic or Duncan didn't have it quite that good. The 2018 Spurs won 47 games.

On teams like San Antonio or Toronto you can your best player dog it and still compete for a title. I'm not sure most title winning clubs can. And I've never bought the contention of some, not saying you, that I shouldn't care at all what a player does for the average team

You kind of have to pretend kevin durant didn't exist.

Not even sure he's "had it easier" than kobe, moses malone, ect.
falcolombardi
General Manager
Posts: 9,500
And1: 7,105
Joined: Apr 13, 2021
       

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#23 » by falcolombardi » Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:23 am

I think his peak may be

His career is so short it is hard to say it is underated unless you go very heavily of rings/peak to evaluate career wise
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,894
And1: 25,231
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#24 » by 70sFan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:04 am

OhayoKD wrote:
sp6r=underrated wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:
I don't disagree with most of what your saying, but isn't it kinda strange to say this about a guy who's won it all (at least once, arguably twice) as a franchise player?



My underlined sentence covers it. He's played on great teams his entire career. You can make a case no one in NBA history has had it better than him.

The 2020 Raptors went 53-19, ECSF G7 loss down by 2 with a minute to go. That is a great team. The year before he arrived they went 59-23. Admittedly got crushed by Cleveland but this is a lot better than the average superstar gets. Even the blessed superstars like Magic or Duncan didn't have it quite that good. The 2018 Spurs won 47 games.

On teams like San Antonio or Toronto you can your best player dog it and still compete for a title. I'm not sure most title winning clubs can. And I've never bought the contention of some, not saying you, that I shouldn't care at all what a player does for the average team

You kind of have to pretend kevin durant didn't exist.

Not even sure he's "had it easier" than kobe, moses malone, ect.

Moses? He played half of his career on poor teams. What great teams he had outside of 1983-85 window?

I don't agree with Kobe either, he was very fortunate but 2005-07 period was significantly worse than anything Kawhi ever saw.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,894
And1: 25,231
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#25 » by 70sFan » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:26 am

Kawhi's career is overrated if anything. He peaked quite high (though not on GOAT level), but his whole career is basically 6 all-nba seasons (2015-17 + 2019-21) and he missed a lot of time during that period - both in RS and in the playoffs. Even someone like Wade, who is known for short prime and great peak, has significantly longer and more productive career.

I guess some might include 2014 to this conversation, but let's be honest - seasons like 2014 don't give you much value in all-time list.
tone wone
Pro Prospect
Posts: 951
And1: 721
Joined: Mar 10, 2015

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#26 » by tone wone » Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:46 am

The only way this thread tracks is if you think he was a star or near star player prior to 2016. He wasnt. So we're basically talking about 5 star seasons. 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020 & 2021.

Theres no way a guy drafted in 2011 with 5 star seasons by 2022 can have an undervalued career. The only reason people even think is because of how good he's had it team wise. From a talent standpoint, the 2017 Spurs are the worst team he's ever played on. Thats crazy!
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:I don’t think LeBron was as good a point guard as Mo Williams for the point guard play not counting the scoring threat. In other words in a non shooting Rondo like role Mo Williams would be better than LeBron.
Ambrose
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,331
And1: 5,131
Joined: Jul 05, 2014

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#27 » by Ambrose » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:25 pm

I think his career is overrated. His legacy is propped up by being surrounded by elite talent from day one and winning two of the three least impressive FMVP's of the last decade. His longevity is abysmal, and there is no reason to think he could be a guy who could routinely carry teams to the postseason because his durability is so lacking. With all that said, he's undoubtedly a superstar player and a postseason machine which makes him one of weirdest players to grade.
hardenASG13 wrote:They are better than the teammates of SGA, Giannis, Luka, Brunson, Curry etc. so far.
~Regarding Denver Nuggets, May 2025
PistolPeteJR
RealGM
Posts: 11,569
And1: 10,381
Joined: Jun 14, 2017
 

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#28 » by PistolPeteJR » Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:57 am

The Duke wrote:He could have had a case for best active player in the league and better resume than Lebron had he remained in Toronto another year and defeated Bron’s Lakers in the bubble championship.


He could have had a better resume than LeBron at the end of 2020 because of having the same amount of rings, less FMVPs, and getting crushed in every other accolade head-to-head with LeBron? Okay.
User avatar
CharityStripe34
General Manager
Posts: 9,508
And1: 6,400
Joined: Dec 01, 2014
     

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#29 » by CharityStripe34 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:23 pm

I'd like to see 1-2 more prime Kawhi years with little to no injury. Otherwise, the Pachulia Cheap Shot in 2017 may become a historical inflection point for a potential Top 15 all-time career. When healthy he is most definitely a Top 5 player in the Association.
"Wes, Hill, Ibaka, Allen, Nwora, Brook, Pat, Ingles, Khris are all slow-mo, injury prone ... a sandcastle waiting for playoff wave to get wrecked. A castle with no long-range archers... is destined to fall. That is all I have to say."-- FOTIS
User avatar
Woodsanity
RealGM
Posts: 15,250
And1: 12,269
Joined: Mar 30, 2012
 

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#30 » by Woodsanity » Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:39 pm

His peak was amazing but his longevity is mediocre partially due to the Zaza injury. :cry:
All NBA Chokers List

PG: Harden
SG: Demar Derozan
SF: Paul George
PF: Karl Malone
C: Embiid (Harden of Centers)
Chronz
Starter
Posts: 2,199
And1: 471
Joined: Jul 30, 2008

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#31 » by Chronz » Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:25 am

Yes, people were calling him a system player and thinking flawed go to isolation specialists like Paul George were better.

This thought was echoed by none other than KD himself. Kawhi in his defensive days was still a superstar impact wise. People think the game is just about scoring tho.

It also seems like many of you are forgetting why the spurs were revived in the first place. Before Kawhi, people were counting them out as a contender
JordansBulls
RealGM
Posts: 60,467
And1: 5,345
Joined: Jul 12, 2006
Location: HCA (Homecourt Advantage)

Re: Is Kawhi's career undervalued? 

Post#32 » by JordansBulls » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:14 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:1. He's been in the NBA 11 years. And has had two wasted season for injuries. He's had another 2 seasons were his body gave out in the post-season. So he's only made it through the post-season 7 of 11 years.
2. He requires significant load management in his twenties.

To give you context, Manu, another SA great who had durability concerns entered the NBA at 25. From 25 to 30 he played 12,056 minutes. Kawhi mustered 8,345 minutes from 25 to 30.

That matteres when you're evaluating players. 18 of the 23 title winners this century were top 2 seeds. 17 of the finals losers were top 2 seeds. If Kawhi is your franchise player you're going to have a hard time getting the top seeds title winners typically get and you have a hard time relying on him to make it through the post-season.

And as to his coasting in the RS, that works if you play on great teams as he has throughout his career. For the typical team they can't get by if their best player treats it as a joke

He won 2 titles which is the same as Wilt did and one for another country dethroning a team who was trying to 3 peat both times.
Image
"Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
- Michael Jordan

Return to Player Comparisons