What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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- Sixth Man
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What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
I never tought about this much. Rick Barry was a great player, he was an historical shooter and scorer, and was a perennial all-nba first team player, he won one of the most impressive rings ever in 1975.
In 1967, he was 22, he played his sophomore season, and he was the nba leading scorer with 35,6 (on +4rts), he played with the great nate thurmond, and they lost the nba finals 4-2 against wilt chamberlain, averaging 40,8 ppg (!!!). Then, he accepted an offer to play in the aba, so, it wasn't until 1973 that he came back to the nba, still averaging a lot of points and being an all nba first team player.
If he didn't: would he have won more rings? where do we rank him all time? do we look differently at the hierarchy of the best players of that generation?
In 1967, he was 22, he played his sophomore season, and he was the nba leading scorer with 35,6 (on +4rts), he played with the great nate thurmond, and they lost the nba finals 4-2 against wilt chamberlain, averaging 40,8 ppg (!!!). Then, he accepted an offer to play in the aba, so, it wasn't until 1973 that he came back to the nba, still averaging a lot of points and being an all nba first team player.
If he didn't: would he have won more rings? where do we rank him all time? do we look differently at the hierarchy of the best players of that generation?
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
If Rick Barry stays.
I see the Warriors making three straight finals from 1967 to 1969 and also winning at least one title in 1968 or 1969.
Afterwards, they would be a serious headache for both the Lakers and Bucks to deal with in the West during the early 1970's
I see the Warriors making three straight finals from 1967 to 1969 and also winning at least one title in 1968 or 1969.
Afterwards, they would be a serious headache for both the Lakers and Bucks to deal with in the West during the early 1970's
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
I don't see him making that kind of huge difference; he makes the Warriors more competitive but still can't make it past the Lakers to the finals especially in 69, (probably not in 68 either), and if he did, no friggin chance in 67 at all where the Sixers were one of the NBA's ATG teams, and would still lose to the Celtics in 68 . . . even if he didn't get injured the way he did in 68 historically.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
- CharityStripe34
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
If the Warriors had won one more title (or two) hypothetically you could argue that he'd be on par (or better) with Larry Bird historically. With one of the most impressive scoring/assisting resumes (especially in the playoffs) of all time.
"Wes, Hill, Ibaka, Allen, Nwora, Brook, Pat, Ingles, Khris are all slow-mo, injury prone ... a sandcastle waiting for playoff wave to get wrecked. A castle with no long-range archers... is destined to fall. That is all I have to say."-- FOTIS
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
He was a great scorer, but he wasn't that dominant even in the early ABA. His team won a title, but they did it with Barry injured and on the bench. Then they weren't a dominant team (though Barry stayed a dominant scorer) even in the early ABA any other years. Compare to other NBA All-Stars who came over. Billy Cunningham who came over and led Carolina to a title in his only uninjured ABA year. Same with Zelmo Beaty. If it wasn't for 75, I would think of Barry as the Carmelo Anthony of his era.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
He still needs to stay healthy. That's his biggest issue from 70-72. He was actually on pace to have the best ts add season of all time in one of those years but then gets injured and his scoring efficiency was never quite the same after he returned to the nba.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
Cunningham never won a title in the ABA. Barry was a great player. If he had stayed with the Warriors and added one more very good player, they certainly would have competed well with the Lakers. The Lakers two big stars were West and Chamberlain. Baylor had only two more good years in the sixties. The Lakers did have Gail Goodrich who was one of the best scoring guards in the league and solid players in Jim McMillian and Happy Hairston.penbeast0 wrote:He was a great scorer, but he wasn't that dominant even in the early ABA. His team won a title, but they did it with Barry injured and on the bench. Then they weren't a dominant team (though Barry stayed a dominant scorer) even in the early ABA any other years. Compare to other NBA All-Stars who came over. Billy Cunningham who came over and led Carolina to a title in his only uninjured ABA year. Same with Zelmo Beaty. If it wasn't for 75, I would think of Barry as the Carmelo Anthony of his era.
But the Warriors had Barry and Thurmond who about equaled West and Chamberlain in value. Jeff Mullins had come into his own as one of the league's best scoring guards. Jerry Lucas, acquired from Cincy was still a very good player and had several good years with the Warriors.
They only needed a decent pg and they could have very well competed with LA and Milwaukee after the Bucks picked up Oscar Robertson.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
Sorry, for some reason I had Cunningham winning the title in 73; he won MVP, his team lost to Kentucky in the playoffs. Sorry.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
Johnlac1 wrote:Cunningham never won a title in the ABA. Barry was a great player. If he had stayed with the Warriors and added one more very good player, they certainly would have competed well with the Lakers. The Lakers two big stars were West and Chamberlain. Baylor had only two more good years in the sixties. The Lakers did have Gail Goodrich who was one of the best scoring guards in the league and solid players in Jim McMillian and Happy Hairston.penbeast0 wrote:He was a great scorer, but he wasn't that dominant even in the early ABA. His team won a title, but they did it with Barry injured and on the bench. Then they weren't a dominant team (though Barry stayed a dominant scorer) even in the early ABA any other years. Compare to other NBA All-Stars who came over. Billy Cunningham who came over and led Carolina to a title in his only uninjured ABA year. Same with Zelmo Beaty. If it wasn't for 75, I would think of Barry as the Carmelo Anthony of his era.
But the Warriors had Barry and Thurmond who about equaled West and Chamberlain in value. Jeff Mullins had come into his own as one of the league's best scoring guards. Jerry Lucas, acquired from Cincy was still a very good player and had several good years with the Warriors.
They only needed a decent pg and they could have very well competed with LA and Milwaukee after the Bucks picked up Oscar Robertson.
Cannot understand certainty here. For one even to use the word at all in a projection.
Secondarily ... GSW AT 2.58 SRS on Barry's departure hover neutral to below average without Barry and go to 3.12 on Barry's return (and fwiw, neither Barry nor Thurmond at perfect health over the coming span. So whilst it very much depends on this mystery added player and which version of the Lakers (with Sharman and a more coherant identity, north of 77 games 2900 minutes from West and Chamberlain in '72 would be a very high bar other versions are [looking more RS] are more catchable though not always the team to beat [e.g. Bucks] though you do cite Milwaukee after the trade so now we're talking GOAT SRS Bucks and their other 10+ team, the Lakers 10+ team and LA with one more north of 8, Milwaukee two more north of 7) and what one means by "competed". So the viability of certainty/high confidence seems to depend very much on the detail of what one means.
Fwiw I'd' quibble with "several" for one and three quarters (and cite impact stuff to query how good Lucas really was - the numbers being so poor is concerning). I'd not feel confident calling Barry-Thurmond equivalent to Chamberlain-West. I'd have to look at it closer but that would seem to leave a mountain for Thurmond to make up in the battle at center (West missing some time, but more available than Barry [that's without punishing him for the option year], around his apex in terms of production [in what early on was the vastly more competitive league] and generally has very positive all time impact signals in the limited measures we have at the time).
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
Cavsfansince84 wrote:He still needs to stay healthy. That's his biggest issue from 70-72. He was actually on pace to have the best ts add season of all time in one of those years but then gets injured and his scoring efficiency was never quite the same after he returned to the nba.
Caveats
1) On pace to ... but at less than half the season as the sample. Suspect other had starts/chunks of seasons on pace for that record and shooting is high variance.
2) In the 2nd year ABA. At that point still very much a second tier league, mostly made up of players who the NBA didn't and wouldn't want.
2a) Hard to get like-for-like. Incomplete data etc but.... Oaks were faster (pace) than any NBA team we have full data for (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/the-team-with-highest-pace-in-nba-history-in-a-season), fastest in the ABA that year, third fastest in ABA history. Behind many estimated numbers from NBA mainly 60s teams.
3) Never quite the same after he returned to the NBA ... okay well yes and no. It was never the same as that year at all. It was somewhat close the next year in a still weak ABA in a less than full season sample. Thereafter in the ABA it wasn't as good as his best NBA season (byg fg% and fg+ those two ABA partial years are outliers). So already before returning it's trending down and far more normal. Then it drops again in the NBA. So not it's not the same after the return but it wasn't just not the same as the apex year/years, it's down from a positive but more normal level.
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
Owly wrote:Caveats
1) On pace to ... but at less than half the season as the sample. Suspect other had starts/chunks of seasons on pace for that record and shooting is high variance.
2) In the 2nd year ABA. At that point still very much a second tier league, mostly made up of players who the NBA didn't and wouldn't want.
2a) Hard to get like-for-like. Incomplete data etc but.... Oaks were faster (pace) than any NBA team we have full data for (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/the-team-with-highest-pace-in-nba-history-in-a-season), fastest in the ABA that year, third fastest in ABA history. Behind many estimated numbers from NBA mainly 60s teams.
3) Never quite the same after he returned to the NBA ... okay well yes and no. It was never the same as that year at all. It was somewhat close the next year in a still weak ABA in a less than full season sample. Thereafter in the ABA it wasn't as good as his best NBA season (byg fg% and fg+ those two ABA partial years are outliers). So already before returning it's trending down and far more normal. Then it drops again in the NBA. So not it's not the same after the return but it wasn't just not the same as the apex year/years, it's down from a positive but more normal level.
I get all of that and its fine to bring it up but pretty much all ts add has context in terms of pace, mpg and everything else. The thing that stands out with Barry is how much his fta go down which leads me to believe that injuries took away a lot of his drive game.
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
What if Wilt had just taken a half season off rather than be traded and Wilit and Rick Barry had both stayed with the Warriors giving them a Wilt, Nate Thumand Rick Barry front court?
Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
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Re: What If Rick Barry didn't go to the ABA?
What if Barry had stayed in the ABA instead of returning; would he have been close to Erving in impact on that league?
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.