Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller?

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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#41 » by Stalwart » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:38 pm

Dooley wrote:Not better than Wade or West but if you think he's the 5th or 6th best SG of all time, having him around 25-40 is reasonable.

For the people who have Reggie out of the top ~60 or so, do you guys think, like, Adrian Dantley was better than him? Vince Carter? Tony Parker? Who do you have over him?


Challenge accepted :D

If you consider statistics, accolades & achievement, team success, eye test, and overall impact on the game/league then I would say these players are definitely ahead of Reggie:

PG: Magic, Oscar, West, Curry, Stockton, Isiah, Kidd, Nash, Paul, Westbrook, Cousy, Payton, Frazier

SG: Jordan, Kobe, Wade, Drexler, Harden, Iverson, Gervin, Ray Allen, Sam Jones

SF: Lebron, Bird, Erving, Durant, Baylor, Havlicek, Barry, Kawhi, Arizin, Pierce, Wilkins, Pippen

PF: Tim, Pettit, Malone, Dirk, KG, Barkley, Giannis, Hayes, McHale, Schayes, Rodman

C: Russell, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Malone, Robinson, Mikan, Ewing, Mutombo, Reed, Unseld, Cowens, Walton, Jokic, Mourning, Johnston

That's 62 players right there. Now, depending on what you value perhaps you could shave off enough players to get him into the top 50. But its going to be extremely difficult to shave off enough players to get him into the 25-40 range.

And thats not even a definite list. I could name another 20 or so players that Reggie would be in competition with. You still got guys like Bob Lanier and Nate Thurmond. Tony Parker. Manu Ginobili. Chauncey. TMac. Vince. Earl the Pearl. James Worthy. The list goes on and on.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#42 » by Warspite » Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:40 pm

Dooley wrote:Not better than Wade or West but if you think he's the 5th or 6th best SG of all time, having him around 25-40 is reasonable.

For the people who have Reggie out of the top ~60 or so, do you guys think, like, Adrian Dantley was better than him? Vince Carter? Tony Parker? Who do you have over him?


Yes and Alex English, Tom Chambers, Jack Sikma, Mark Aguirre, Bernard King, Bill Laimbeer, David Thompson, Earl Monroe, Dumars, Nique, Dale Ellis, Squid, Pistol, Arizen, Melo, Booker, Lillard, Bing, Lou Hudson, Gilbert Arenas, Paul Pierce, Mitch Richmond, Marques Johnson, Walt Bellamy, Hal Greer, Tiny, Chris Mullin, James Worthy, Billy Cunningham, Bob Lanier, Kevin Johnson, Mark Price, Penny, TMac, Bosh, George Yardley, DeBuss, Goodrich, Klay Thompson, Chris Webber, Ray Allen, Artis Gilmore, Robert Parish, and the GOAT Pacer Mel Daniels.


I dont think Reggie Miller is a top 10 SG of all time and SG is the weakest position in league history.

Devin Booker has already accomplished as much as Reggie.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#43 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:31 pm

Let me say I have Reggie at about 40 but it doesn't offend me that people would have him at 30 or 75 or 100 because on top of what criteria people tend to rely on(which can greatly vary) Reggie is a very difficult player to evaluate and even his personality is sort of polarizing. So of course people have extreme opinions on how good he actually was and on his very unique play style which impacts his box score stats but also has pro's along with con's.
I mean if you measure offensive value by off win shares then he is top 4 in them 7 times and top 10 a bunch of other times and in terms of ts add(relevant I think for a sg) he is top 5 probably most every year of his prime. So in terms of filling the role of a sg he's actually really good at it and his teams were top 5-10 in ORtg consistently through his prime while he leads them in scoring most every year. He even gets to the line a decent amount and is an atg level ft shooter who can get to the rim and finish with his length despite being sort of slow and without a great handle.
Then he also is going to wear out whoever is chasing him all game long which impacts how they play on the other end and he doesn't disrupt the flow of an offense since he's not asking for the ball usually until he shoots. So it creates natural flow to the offense. The only drawback being its hard to just give him the ball and expect something to happen at the end of games the way you can with many great wings and probably made it harder for him to get shots in general which is reflected in his low fgapg(high of 15.7 and average of 12.6 for career). So in some ways he is a complimentary piece and if his shooting if off his overall value is pretty low since he isn't making up for it with other things the way other greats could with play making or defense.
Just putting all of this out there to give both sides to things and maybe hopefully get people to see that there are good arguments to be made both for and against him as a player.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#44 » by Warspite » Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:58 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Let me say I have Reggie at about 40 but it doesn't offend me that people would have him at 30 or 75 or 100 because on top of what criteria people tend to rely on(which can greatly vary) Reggie is a very difficult player to evaluate and even his personality is sort of polarizing. So of course people have extreme opinions on how good he actually was and on his very unique play style which impacts his box score stats but also has pro's along with con's.
I mean if you measure offensive value by off win shares then he is top 4 in them 7 times and top 10 a bunch of other times and in terms of ts add(relevant I think for a sg) he is top 5 probably most every year of his prime. So in terms of filling the role of a sg he's actually really good at it and his teams were top 5-10 in ORtg consistently through his prime while he leads them in scoring most every year. He even gets to the line a decent amount and is an atg level ft shooter who can get to the rim and finish with his length despite being sort of slow and without a great handle.
Then he also is going to wear out whoever is chasing him all game long which impacts how they play on the other end and he doesn't disrupt the flow of an offense since he's not asking for the ball usually until he shoots. So it creates natural flow to the offense. The only drawback being its hard to just give him the ball and expect something to happen at the end of games the way you can with many great wings and probably made it harder for him to get shots in general which is reflected in his low fgapg(high of 15.7 and average of 12.6 for career). So in some ways he is a complimentary piece and if his shooting if off his overall value is pretty low since he isn't making up for it with other things the way other greats could with play making or defense.
Just putting all of this out there to give both sides to things and maybe hopefully get people to see that there are good arguments to be made both for and against him as a player.


I didnt take into account his impact on wearing down his opponents. Thank you for reminding me.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#45 » by MMyhre » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:14 pm

Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Reggie Miller has significantly more WS and VORP than Wade in the Regular Season while the post-season Wade has a slight edge [due in large part to playing next to LeBron James].

In every single one of Wade's deep runs, he had a player significantly better than anyone Miller ever had at his disposal.


Aren't WS and VORP cumulative? I already gave the edge to Miller as it pertains to longevity.

Peak isn't close though in my opinion. Miller was nowhere near 06 Wade, let alone 09. Defense wasn't close, nor was playmaking.


Right...so you agree that if someone [not you nor myself] valued longevity, explained how Wade benefited greatly from his teammates [Shaq and LeBron], pointed out how Wade was barely making the playoffs in his career when he didn't have LeBron or Shaq, and then concluded Miller was higher than Wade all-time, you would not be able to understand why said person had Miller ahead of Wade?

Do you think it is reasonable for people to have different views and valuations of "All-time greats"? Do you think cumulative value is reasonable? Do you think teammates have a massive impact on winning NBA Titles?

Listen you... stop nitpicking your own biased takes now mate. Only logged in because your tone pissed me off, mentioning how Wade is mediocre shooter (HE WAS A GOOD, to sometimes GREAT ++ midrange shooter btw), and ignoring the obvious SPACING advantage he gets now. You're telling me a guy that averages 35 on crazy efficency in a finals, on primarily a 2pt game IN A CLOGGED 2PT ERA WITH BIGS, isnt GOING TO THRIVE NOW? Because "mah shooting, oh everyone who shoots 3's so good now".

My goodness, also who the hell cares about longevity when you have an MVP/MVP candidate for 5 seasons, and an All NBA high all star for 3-5 more? And you of course start trying to nitpick the "Shaq and LeBron argument" like Wade wasn't a BIG PART of Miami getting better in 2005, and they only lost in the playoffs because he got hurt. And like he wasnt way better than Shaq for the whole part of 06, even Shaq says he was the best player in the fking league, and made him believe it, because he did.

And you obviously didn't mention him outperforming LeBron for huge parts of 2011, before his decline began slowly because of injuries. AND INJURIES are the thing, it's REALLY unlucky for Wade, because he was becoming the best player in the league in 2007 absolutely dumpstering Kobe when they faced that season.

Oh and when he "failed to go deep" he lost to the **** solid Hawks core with BEASLEY or a WASHED Jermaine Oneal as his 2nd best player (and he was injured again that series, yes this is a problem, but its also so god damned unlucky to get it at these times) and the BIG THREE CELTICS, which he fking light up and even started hitting threes like he was Steph Curry.

Reggie Miller is not even close to Dwyane Wade, and he would not outperform him in a futuristic world because of his shooting and spacing, because that ALSO helps the game of Wade, which was WAY more complete, to just drive in and get 15-20 EASY points of layups, free throws, MINIMUM.

No one gives a crap about career value when it's so clearly in favor of one player at their best, and the other player just isn't gonna give you close to that same value. Go have your career value player, that isnt even making a lot of all NBA and all star teams, while I take the MVP/top 10-15 peak player for 5 years and 5 more years of all nba to all star. AND HONESTLY, if we are playing the "adapting to era" stuff, then who the hell knows if Wade gets injured as much with so much space and less bigs to fight in the paint? Or if Reggie Miller starts feeling the heat more because the pace of the game is much faster? It's so hypothetical, and if I win the roll there, you get at best a FRINGE all nba player, and if Wade is healthy for those first 5 years I get a fking MVP LEVEL player for maybe MORE THAN 5 YEARS, so its just silly all around. Keep being passive aggressive though!
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#46 » by Colbinii » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:23 pm

MMyhre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Aren't WS and VORP cumulative? I already gave the edge to Miller as it pertains to longevity.

Peak isn't close though in my opinion. Miller was nowhere near 06 Wade, let alone 09. Defense wasn't close, nor was playmaking.


Right...so you agree that if someone [not you nor myself] valued longevity, explained how Wade benefited greatly from his teammates [Shaq and LeBron], pointed out how Wade was barely making the playoffs in his career when he didn't have LeBron or Shaq, and then concluded Miller was higher than Wade all-time, you would not be able to understand why said person had Miller ahead of Wade?

Do you think it is reasonable for people to have different views and valuations of "All-time greats"? Do you think cumulative value is reasonable? Do you think teammates have a massive impact on winning NBA Titles?

Listen you passive aggressive lil.., stop nitpicking your own biased takes now mate. Only logged in because I get pissed off reading your crap, mentioning how Wade is mediocre shooter (HE WAS A GOOD, to sometimes GREAT ++ midrange shooter btw), and ignoring the obvious SPACING advantage he gets now. You're telling me a guy that averages 35 on crazy efficency in a finals, on primarily a 2pt game IN A CLOGGED 2PT ERA WITH BIGS, isnt GOING TO THRIVE NOW? Because "mah shooting, oh everyone who shoots 3's so good now". Get out of your sweaty seat and use that brain and body of yours now.

My goodness, also who the hell cares about longevity when you have an MVP/MVP candidate for 5 seasons, and an All NBA high all star for 3-5 more? And you of course start trying to nitpick the "Shaq and LeBron argument" like Wade wasn't a BIG PART of Miami getting better in 2005, and they only lost in the playoffs because he got hurt. And like he wasnt way better than Shaq for the whole part of 06, even Shaq says he was the best player in the fking league, and made him believe it, because he did.

And you obviously didn't mention him outperforming LeBron for huge parts of 2011, before his decline began slowly because of injuries. AND INJURIES are the thing, it's REALLY unlucky for Wade, because he was becoming the best player in the league in 2007 absolutely dumpstering Kobe when they faced that season.

Oh and when he "failed to go deep" he lost to the **** solid Hawks core with BEASLEY or a WASHED Jermaine Oneal as his 2nd best player (and he was injured again that series, yes this is a problem, but its also so god damned unlucky to get it at these times) and the BIG THREE CELTICS, which he fking light up and even started hitting threes like he was Steph Curry.

Reggie Miller is not even close to Dwyane Wade, and he would not outperform him in a futuristic world because of his shooting and spacing, because that ALSO helps the game of Wade, which was WAY more complete, to just drive in and get 15-20 EASY points of layups, free throws, MINIMUM.

No one gives a crap about career value when it's so clearly in favor of one player at their best, and the other player just isn't gonna give you close to that same value. Go have your career value player, that isnt even making a lot of all NBA and all star teams, while I take the MVP/top 10-15 peak player for 5 years and 5 more years of all nba to all star. AND HONESTLY, if we are playing the "adapting to era" stuff, then who the hell knows if Wade gets injured as much with so much space and less bigs to fight in the paint? Or if Reggie Miller starts feeling the heat more because the pace of the game is much faster? It's so hypothetical, and if I win the roll there, you get at best a FRINGE all nba player, and if Wade is healthy for those first 5 years I get a fking MVP LEVEL player for maybe MORE THAN 5 YEARS, so its just silly all around. Keep being passive aggressive you though!!! Hella annoying to read. Have some flamethrowing back at you, I dont need to hide behind my words.


1) See you on your next account big dog!

2) I'm not reading this but I do appreciate you taking time out of your day to read my posts!

3) Since you couldn't tell, I was making up a hypothetical/theoretical argument for why someone [not me] could logically and reasonably have Miller ahead of Wade.

I understand not all of us speak English as a first language and understand the difficulties of the English language as a second language. I do want to be clear--again--this isn't my position on Reggie Miller vs Dwyane Wade, but rather a position which could be argued.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#47 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:20 pm

Jaivl wrote:I don't think it's a given that he's any worse than Steph Curry ITO career. I could see late 10s to 50s, probably the biggest "reasonable" range for a modern player.


Multiple rings, multiple MVPs & multiple scoring titles vs a guy that's never done any of those? :crazy:

Curry is a lock on top 10.

Reggie Miller would be lucky to be top 50.

Reggie Miller is:
0-8 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
3-4 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
7-2 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-1 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

When they made the Finals the best team was the Knicks, which had an SRS of 1.30.

Stephen Curry is:
6-4 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
7-0 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
6-0 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-0 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

He stayed healthy and scored a moderate amount of points on a mediocre teams. He lacks quality playoff wins and dominant regular seasons. He's much closer to a Klay Thomnpson than a Karl Malone.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#48 » by Jaivl » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:38 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
Jaivl wrote:I don't think it's a given that he's any worse than Steph Curry ITO career. I could see late 10s to 50s, probably the biggest "reasonable" range for a modern player.


Multiple rings, multiple MVPs & multiple scoring titles vs a guy that's never done any of those? :crazy:

Curry is a lock on top 10.

Reggie Miller would be lucky to be top 50.

And I thought I was being controversial!
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#49 » by MMyhre » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:28 pm

Colbinii wrote:
MMyhre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Right...so you agree that if someone [not you nor myself] valued longevity, explained how Wade benefited greatly from his teammates [Shaq and LeBron], pointed out how Wade was barely making the playoffs in his career when he didn't have LeBron or Shaq, and then concluded Miller was higher than Wade all-time, you would not be able to understand why said person had Miller ahead of Wade?

Do you think it is reasonable for people to have different views and valuations of "All-time greats"? Do you think cumulative value is reasonable? Do you think teammates have a massive impact on winning NBA Titles?

Listen you passive aggressive lil.., stop nitpicking your own biased takes now mate. Only logged in because I get pissed off reading your crap, mentioning how Wade is mediocre shooter (HE WAS A GOOD, to sometimes GREAT ++ midrange shooter btw), and ignoring the obvious SPACING advantage he gets now. You're telling me a guy that averages 35 on crazy efficency in a finals, on primarily a 2pt game IN A CLOGGED 2PT ERA WITH BIGS, isnt GOING TO THRIVE NOW? Because "mah shooting, oh everyone who shoots 3's so good now". Get out of your sweaty seat and use that brain and body of yours now.

My goodness, also who the hell cares about longevity when you have an MVP/MVP candidate for 5 seasons, and an All NBA high all star for 3-5 more? And you of course start trying to nitpick the "Shaq and LeBron argument" like Wade wasn't a BIG PART of Miami getting better in 2005, and they only lost in the playoffs because he got hurt. And like he wasnt way better than Shaq for the whole part of 06, even Shaq says he was the best player in the fking league, and made him believe it, because he did.

And you obviously didn't mention him outperforming LeBron for huge parts of 2011, before his decline began slowly because of injuries. AND INJURIES are the thing, it's REALLY unlucky for Wade, because he was becoming the best player in the league in 2007 absolutely dumpstering Kobe when they faced that season.

Oh and when he "failed to go deep" he lost to the **** solid Hawks core with BEASLEY or a WASHED Jermaine Oneal as his 2nd best player (and he was injured again that series, yes this is a problem, but its also so god damned unlucky to get it at these times) and the BIG THREE CELTICS, which he fking light up and even started hitting threes like he was Steph Curry.

Reggie Miller is not even close to Dwyane Wade, and he would not outperform him in a futuristic world because of his shooting and spacing, because that ALSO helps the game of Wade, which was WAY more complete, to just drive in and get 15-20 EASY points of layups, free throws, MINIMUM.

No one gives a crap about career value when it's so clearly in favor of one player at their best, and the other player just isn't gonna give you close to that same value. Go have your career value player, that isnt even making a lot of all NBA and all star teams, while I take the MVP/top 10-15 peak player for 5 years and 5 more years of all nba to all star. AND HONESTLY, if we are playing the "adapting to era" stuff, then who the hell knows if Wade gets injured as much with so much space and less bigs to fight in the paint? Or if Reggie Miller starts feeling the heat more because the pace of the game is much faster? It's so hypothetical, and if I win the roll there, you get at best a FRINGE all nba player, and if Wade is healthy for those first 5 years I get a fking MVP LEVEL player for maybe MORE THAN 5 YEARS, so its just silly all around. Keep being passive aggressive you though!!! Hella annoying to read. Have some flamethrowing back at you, I dont need to hide behind my words.


1) See you on your next account big dog!

2) I'm not reading this but I do appreciate you taking time out of your day to read my posts!

3) Since you couldn't tell, I was making up a hypothetical/theoretical argument for why someone [not me] could logically and reasonably have Miller ahead of Wade.

I understand not all of us speak English as a first language and understand the difficulties of the English language as a second language. I do want to be clear--again--this isn't my position on Reggie Miller vs Dwyane Wade, but rather a position which could be argued.

It's fun when someone doesn't have a good answer, so they try to create this false narrative/personal attack on my english being so incomprehensible. I bet you're not this unbearable in real life! I'll take the MVP level player over the (MAYBE) fringe All Star "hypothetically" all day.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#50 » by AEnigma » Thu Aug 11, 2022 9:46 pm

Love all those maybe fringe all-stars who give you 24 points per 75 on +8 relative efficiency over twelve postseasons. :love:
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#51 » by LAL1947 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:24 pm

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Reggie Miller is:
0-8 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
3-4 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
7-2 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-1 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

When they made the Finals the best team was the Knicks, which had an SRS of 1.30.

Stephen Curry is:
6-4 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
7-0 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
6-0 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-0 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

I don't think anyone is saying Reggie was a better player than Steph. They're just acknowledging that Steph is playing in an era and on a team with quality team-mates that is tailor-made for his skill-set to shine... and that Reggie had a similar skill-set but played in a very different era and on a team that was not constructed for him to shine as much, yet shine away he did.

Anyway, I have a question to ask about this SRS comparison. What was the respective SRS of Reggie's and Steph's teams in each of those series that were played against the teams with more than 5.0 SRS, 3.0-5.0 SRS, 1.0-3.0 SRS, and less than 1.0 SRS?

It would be nice to see a comprehensive list. :thumbsup:
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#52 » by dooki667 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:31 pm

I'm not sure if y'all know this but if you put Spike Lee in the front row Reggie Miller becomes the Greatest basketball player of all time.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#53 » by -Sammy- » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:31 pm

I'm intrigued by the amount of support Miller gets here on RGM, because I don't think the PC board regulars would be so adamant about it if they didn't feel they have a compelling case.

For my part, I've always found him overrated and he's fringe top-60 for me.

I wonder in equal measure 1.) if I should spend some time on the pro-Miller arguments to see if they'll change my mind, and 2.) if the support he gets is a function of people believing he'd be much better in this era than he was in his own (a notion I strongly agree with).
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#54 » by Cavsfansince84 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:40 pm

-Sammy- wrote:I'm intrigued by the amount of support Miller gets here on RGM, because I don't think the PC board regulars would be so adamant about it if they didn't feel they have a compelling case.

For my part, I've always found him overrated and he's fringe top-60 for me.

I wonder in equal measure 1.) if I should spend some time on the pro-Miller arguments to see if they'll change my mind, and 2.) if the support he gets is a function of people believing he'd be much better in this era than he was in his own (a notion I strongly agree with).


I think putting in the time to see the arguments made for him has to be the first priority because I didn't used to that high on Reggie either but had him in my top 40 in the last top 100 after doing more research though its possible i could revisit that and have him more in the 45-50 range if I do the next one. My ranking has almost nothing with how I think he'd do in this era either. I think in some ways he was helped by being ahead of his time in terms of relative efficiency and stuff like that.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#55 » by SickMother » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:37 pm

-Sammy- wrote:I'm intrigued by the amount of support Miller gets here on RGM, because I don't think the PC board regulars would be so adamant about it if they didn't feel they have a compelling case.

For my part, I've always found him overrated and he's fringe top-60 for me.

I wonder in equal measure 1.) if I should spend some time on the pro-Miller arguments to see if they'll change my mind, and 2.) if the support he gets is a function of people believing he'd be much better in this era than he was in his own (a notion I strongly agree with).


One thing Reggie has going for him is he played a lot, 14th most combined regular season/playoff minutes of all time. He also made shots more efficiently than just about everybody ever, ranking 14th in RS TS% and 13th in PO TS% for his career. Making a lot of shots yields a high Offensive Rating, Reggie is 4th RS and 17th PO for his career.

Playing a lot & making tons of shots gives one more opportunities to accrue value, which Reggie also did, ranking 18th in combined RS/PO Win Shares and 23rd in combined RS/PO VORP.

Now, I'm not saying that Reggie is a top 18-23 player of all time because some statistics that attempt to capture value say he is, but I think he'd be one of the greatest 2nd options of all time which puts him squarely in the thirties for me.
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#56 » by Chronz » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:49 pm

Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
I can see arguments over West, Wade and Harden. Kobe is tougher.


Over Wade and West? Really?


If you value more recent players and believe in the a time machine methodologies then Miller has a good case over West. West also never had a perimeter player of the same position as Jordans as a contemporary [Oscar is close but didn't have the post-season success Jordan did].

Wade has terrible longevity and isn't the maximized in the modern era as a mediocre shooter.

Seeing arguments comes with being open minded.

There is no argument. MJ never had the swings of the 2k era, he had the likes of Reggie who wasn't even a mainstay for the Allstars game much less all nba selections. Doesn't make mj any less dominant.

Reggie wasn't losing to just MJ, he was losing to guys we barely remember.

Reggie would lose his some of his value in the 70s if he played in west era.

There is no objective measure that suggests it would even be close
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#57 » by Chronz » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:51 pm

SickMother wrote:
-Sammy- wrote:I'm intrigued by the amount of support Miller gets here on RGM, because I don't think the PC board regulars would be so adamant about it if they didn't feel they have a compelling case.

For my part, I've always found him overrated and he's fringe top-60 for me.

I wonder in equal measure 1.) if I should spend some time on the pro-Miller arguments to see if they'll change my mind, and 2.) if the support he gets is a function of people believing he'd be much better in this era than he was in his own (a notion I strongly agree with).


One thing Reggie has going for him is he played a lot, 14th most combined regular season/playoff minutes of all time. He also made shots more efficiently than just about everybody ever, ranking 14th in RS TS% and 13th in PO TS% for his career. Making a lot of shots yields a high Offensive Rating, Reggie is 4th RS and 17th PO for his career.

Playing a lot & making tons of shots gives one more opportunities to accrue value, which Reggie also did, ranking 18th in combined RS/PO Win Shares and 23rd in combined RS/PO VORP.

Now, I'm not saying that Reggie is a top 18-23 player of all time because some statistics that attempt to capture value say he is, but I think he'd be one of the greatest 2nd options of all time which puts him squarely in the thirties for me.

Playing alot longer isn't as important as attaining the higher level of play. Having Wade gives me a shot at a championship, with Reggie, you need alot more help.

I'll take the shorter years with higher success rates
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#58 » by Chronz » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:55 pm

LAL1947 wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Reggie Miller is:
0-8 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
3-4 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
7-2 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-1 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

When they made the Finals the best team was the Knicks, which had an SRS of 1.30.

Stephen Curry is:
6-4 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
7-0 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
6-0 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-0 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

I don't think anyone is saying Reggie was a better player than Steph. They're just acknowledging that Steph is playing in an era and on a team with quality team-mates that is tailor-made for his skill-set to shine... and that Reggie had a similar skill-set but played in a very different era and on a team that was not constructed for him to shine as much, yet shine away he did.

Anyway, I have a question to ask about this SRS comparison. What was the respective SRS of Reggie's and Steph's teams in each of those series that were played against the teams with more than 5.0 SRS, 3.0-5.0 SRS, 1.0-3.0 SRS, and less than 1.0 SRS?

It would be nice to see a comprehensive list. :thumbsup:

Reggie never meant as much to his teams than curry, and any hypothetical that thinks Reggie could've been utilized more neglects to Mention curry could also turn up the stats. Dude was sitting on the bench entire 4th quarters cuz he was dominant. Took a backseat for his teammates to get theirs.

Reggie lacked the handle to play at that isolation specialist or pnr dance type of game. It's why he needed endless screens and a pure pg to feed him
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#59 » by Chronz » Sun Aug 14, 2022 4:57 pm

MMyhre wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
MMyhre wrote:Listen you passive aggressive lil.., stop nitpicking your own biased takes now mate. Only logged in because I get pissed off reading your crap, mentioning how Wade is mediocre shooter (HE WAS A GOOD, to sometimes GREAT ++ midrange shooter btw), and ignoring the obvious SPACING advantage he gets now. You're telling me a guy that averages 35 on crazy efficency in a finals, on primarily a 2pt game IN A CLOGGED 2PT ERA WITH BIGS, isnt GOING TO THRIVE NOW? Because "mah shooting, oh everyone who shoots 3's so good now". Get out of your sweaty seat and use that brain and body of yours now.

My goodness, also who the hell cares about longevity when you have an MVP/MVP candidate for 5 seasons, and an All NBA high all star for 3-5 more? And you of course start trying to nitpick the "Shaq and LeBron argument" like Wade wasn't a BIG PART of Miami getting better in 2005, and they only lost in the playoffs because he got hurt. And like he wasnt way better than Shaq for the whole part of 06, even Shaq says he was the best player in the fking league, and made him believe it, because he did.

And you obviously didn't mention him outperforming LeBron for huge parts of 2011, before his decline began slowly because of injuries. AND INJURIES are the thing, it's REALLY unlucky for Wade, because he was becoming the best player in the league in 2007 absolutely dumpstering Kobe when they faced that season.

Oh and when he "failed to go deep" he lost to the **** solid Hawks core with BEASLEY or a WASHED Jermaine Oneal as his 2nd best player (and he was injured again that series, yes this is a problem, but its also so god damned unlucky to get it at these times) and the BIG THREE CELTICS, which he fking light up and even started hitting threes like he was Steph Curry.

Reggie Miller is not even close to Dwyane Wade, and he would not outperform him in a futuristic world because of his shooting and spacing, because that ALSO helps the game of Wade, which was WAY more complete, to just drive in and get 15-20 EASY points of layups, free throws, MINIMUM.

No one gives a crap about career value when it's so clearly in favor of one player at their best, and the other player just isn't gonna give you close to that same value. Go have your career value player, that isnt even making a lot of all NBA and all star teams, while I take the MVP/top 10-15 peak player for 5 years and 5 more years of all nba to all star. AND HONESTLY, if we are playing the "adapting to era" stuff, then who the hell knows if Wade gets injured as much with so much space and less bigs to fight in the paint? Or if Reggie Miller starts feeling the heat more because the pace of the game is much faster? It's so hypothetical, and if I win the roll there, you get at best a FRINGE all nba player, and if Wade is healthy for those first 5 years I get a fking MVP LEVEL player for maybe MORE THAN 5 YEARS, so its just silly all around. Keep being passive aggressive you though!!! Hella annoying to read. Have some flamethrowing back at you, I dont need to hide behind my words.


1) See you on your next account big dog!

2) I'm not reading this but I do appreciate you taking time out of your day to read my posts!

3) Since you couldn't tell, I was making up a hypothetical/theoretical argument for why someone [not me] could logically and reasonably have Miller ahead of Wade.

I understand not all of us speak English as a first language and understand the difficulties of the English language as a second language. I do want to be clear--again--this isn't my position on Reggie Miller vs Dwyane Wade, but rather a position which could be argued.

It's fun when someone doesn't have a good answer, so they try to create this false narrative/personal attack on my english being so incomprehensible. I bet you're not this unbearable in real life! I'll take the MVP level player over the (MAYBE) fringe All Star "hypothetically" all day.

Lol, I have a friend who thinks we could hypothetically place Marcus smart over Elgin Baylor, wanna debate the validity of such an absurd hypo?
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Re: Highest reasonable ranking for Reggie Miller? 

Post#60 » by oaktownwarriors87 » Mon Aug 15, 2022 4:45 am

Chronz wrote:
LAL1947 wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:Reggie Miller is:
0-8 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
3-4 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
7-2 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-1 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

When they made the Finals the best team was the Knicks, which had an SRS of 1.30.

Stephen Curry is:
6-4 vs teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher
7-0 vs teams with an SRS between 3.0 and 5.0
6-0 vs teams with an SRS between 1.0 and 3.0
4-0 vs teams with an SRS less than 1.0

I don't think anyone is saying Reggie was a better player than Steph. They're just acknowledging that Steph is playing in an era and on a team with quality team-mates that is tailor-made for his skill-set to shine... and that Reggie had a similar skill-set but played in a very different era and on a team that was not constructed for him to shine as much, yet shine away he did.

Anyway, I have a question to ask about this SRS comparison. What was the respective SRS of Reggie's and Steph's teams in each of those series that were played against the teams with more than 5.0 SRS, 3.0-5.0 SRS, 1.0-3.0 SRS, and less than 1.0 SRS?

It would be nice to see a comprehensive list. :thumbsup:

Reggie never meant as much to his teams than curry, and any hypothetical that thinks Reggie could've been utilized more neglects to Mention curry could also turn up the stats. Dude was sitting on the bench entire 4th quarters cuz he was dominant. Took a backseat for his teammates to get theirs.

Reggie lacked the handle to play at that isolation specialist or pnr dance type of game. It's why he needed endless screens and a pure pg to feed him


Yeah, I'm not going to bother looking at the Warriors and Pacers SRS. Trying to penalize/handicap Curry for making his team better is weird.

If I played against Tiger Woods and we both shot against our handicaps I could hang, too.

I know Russell Westbrook is 8-1 in the Playoffs when his team has the higher SRS. The problem with Westbroo, and Reggie, is that they don't elevate a team like Curry does. Only comparing them when one faces lesser competition is useless.
cdubbz wrote:Donte DiVincenzo will outplay Poole this season.

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