Could Lebron have been all defensive in 07?

[An Unbiased Fan]

Yes, LeBron in 2020 and 2021 was a better defender than 2019 Kawhi.

The statistics that are present here account for almost all the context that there is. Then again, you think that Stoudemire and Gasol were the same level of defender so there’s not much I can do here.

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years, that's why. Kawhi was in his prime physically and did things Lebron wasn't able to in 20 & 21. It's a big reason why the Raptors won the title. Like what are we talking about here. Lebron played with AD who impacts those synergy numbers. Kawhi takes the tough assignments, so by default he's going to give up more, but there's no context to that in the stats at all. It's like comparing a spot up shooting roleplayer's 3pt %. to a primary scorer with defensive pressure.

It's really sad how much comparisons has dropped to pick these stats vs other stats, no context or actual breakdown. I mean I could post stats and make all sorts of arguments.

2020 AD's defense - 0.50 DRPM

vs

2020 Harden's defense - 1.18 DRPM
^
Why do people think AD was a better defender that year....clearly +/- stats say otherwise.

[falcolombardi]

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years, that's why. Kawhi was in his prime physically and did things Lebron wasn't able to in 20 & 21. It's a big reason why the Raptors won the title. Like what are we talking about here. Lebron played with AD who impacts those synergy numbers. Kawhi takes the tough assignments, so by default he's going to give up more, but there's no context to that in the stats at all. It's like comparing a spot up shooting roleplayer's 3pt %. to a primary scorer with defensive pressure.

It's really sad how much comparisons has dropped to pick these stats vs other stats, no context or actual breakdown. I mean I could post stats and make all sorts of arguments.

2020 AD's defense - 0.50 DRPM

vs

2020 Harden's defense - 1.18 DRPM
^
Why do people think AD was a better defender that year....clearly +/- stats say otherwise.

Lebron played with AD who impacts those synergy numbers.

Kawhi played with gasol, lowry, anunoby, danny green ibaka and siakam. The whole rotation of toronto was plus (ibaka) to plus+++ (gasol) defenders. Even the smaller van vleet. They were a stacked defensive cast before even considering kawhi

2020 AD's defense - 0.50 DRPM
vs
2020 Harden's defense - 1.18 DRPM

Now put those numbers in context as you say, davis played with excelent defensive teammates and good defensive backups so in small minutes those davis less lakers units could still smother teams. Specially agains other bench heavy units

Both lakers in davis and davis-less minutes were a better defense than houston. Rapm here tells us that rockets bench units happen to drop off more than lakers bench units. This says more good about the lakers than bad about davis

Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years, that's why.

He was excellent in both 2020 and pre injury 2021.

Kawhi was in his prime physically and did things Lebron wasn't able to in 20 & 21.

Kawhi was not in his prime physically in 2019, his physical prime ended on a fall over zaza pachulia foot. He has never had the same defensive motor/effort again and his body seemingly suffers from wear and tear as playoffs runs go

It is even apparent in the 2019 year you mention, compare kawhi vs sixers with kawhi vs warriors

I agree kawhi can do thinghs lebron cannot, lebron also can do thinghs kawhi cannot, namely rim protection

It's a big reason why the Raptors won the title.

Lebron defense was a good reason why lakers won the title too

[homecourtloss]

You posted a few stats and want them to be gospel, that's just silly. Then again you think 20/21 Lebron was a better defender than 19 Kawhi so there's not much I can do here.

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years, that's why. Kawhi was in his prime physically and did things Lebron wasn't able to in 20 & 21. It's a big reason why the Raptors won the title. Like what are we talking about here. Lebron played with AD who impacts those synergy numbers. Kawhi takes the tough assignments, so by default he's going to give up more, but there's no context to that in the stats at all. It's like comparing a spot up shooting roleplayer's 3pt %. to a primary scorer with defensive pressure.

It's really sad how much comparisons has dropped to pick these stats vs other stats, no context or actual breakdown. I mean I could post stats and make all sorts of arguments.

2020 AD's defense - 0.50 DRPM

vs

2020 Harden's defense - 1.18 DRPM
^
Why do people think AD was a better defender that year....clearly +/- stats say otherwise.

It’s pretty clear with your comments in this thread and then others that you have absolutely no idea what the data stands for so me reiterating it isn’t going to do much but I’ll try here.

You are stuck on the narrative that “LeBron hasn’t been a good defender in years“ when the data that accounts for every single play type, every single possession that he played, shows that in defending different types of actions from iso defense to post defense to closing out on shooters, he did extremely well including having the third best field goal differential between what he allowed to what those players shoot vs. everyone else in 2021. When you say that you’re posting a few stats that ignore context, the stats describe every single possession that he played. What’s more subjective — somebody’s memory about a certain narrative or statistics that cover every possession a player played?

When you talk about matchups and whom the player is defending, go and look up with the field-goal percentage of the players both LeBron and Kawhi defend it – they’re about the same. In any case, we’re talking about how much worse the opponent shot against LeBron or Kawhi. LeBron was holding the players he was defending, whoever they were, to far lower shooting percentages than Kawai was to the players whom he was defending.

The Lakers had elite Defenses in 2020 and 2021, defenses that were significantly better with LeBron on court.

As for you comments about AD and his effect on LeBron’s numbers:

2020 March 31st before the bubble:

LeBron On, AD off, 777 minutes: 113.5 ORtg, 103.0 DRtg, +10.3 [DRtg equivalent to 2nd best in the NBA], points differential equivalent to an all-time teams’.

AD ON, LeBron off, 572 minutes: 111.9 ORtg, 114.4 DRtg, -2.5 [DRtg equivalent to 28th in the NBA], points differential like that of a lottery team.

LeBron seem to be doing really well defensively with a AD on the bench or unavailable.

2020 Lakers’ DRtg when player is on court:

THT: 111.2
Rondo: 107.3
KCP: 107.2
AD: 106.4
Howard: 106.4
Green: 106.0
McGee: 105.7
Kuzma: 105.2
Dion: 105.0
Bradley: 104.0
Morris: 103.4
Daniels: 102.7
Cook: 102.5
Caruso: 101.0
Dudley: 98.4

DRtgs for LeBron Pairs:

James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron)
James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron)
James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron)
James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron)
James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron)
James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron)
James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron)
James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron)
James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron)
James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron)
James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)

[An Unbiased Fan]

Now put those numbers in context as you say, davis played with excelent defensive teammates and good defensive backups so in small minutes those davis less lakers units could still smother teams. Specially agains other bench heavy units

Both lakers in davis and davis-less minutes were a better defense than houston. Rapm here tells us that rockets bench units happen to drop off more than lakers bench units. This says more good about the lakers than bad about davis

I totally agree with this. My point was to show how stats without context can lead to wrong conclusions. Too often I see two stats compared, and context ignored.

[An Unbiased Fan]

You are criticizint the use of "stats as gospel" but also come across as the dogmatic one here

I Think you may be going too much off name recognition here by equating 2019 kawhi to his dpoy years

Just like i wouldnt argue 2014 lebron is a elite defender by imagining 2012 lebron i wouldnt equate 2019 kawhi to 2016

What do you think makes 2019 kawhi>2020 lebron so obvious?

Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years, that's why. Kawhi was in his prime physically and did things Lebron wasn't able to in 20 & 21. It's a big reason why the Raptors won the title. Like what are we talking about here. Lebron played with AD who impacts those synergy numbers. Kawhi takes the tough assignments, so by default he's going to give up more, but there's no context to that in the stats at all. It's like comparing a spot up shooting roleplayer's 3pt %. to a primary scorer with defensive pressure.

It's really sad how much comparisons has dropped to pick these stats vs other stats, no context or actual breakdown. I mean I could post stats and make all sorts of arguments.

2020 AD's defense - 0.50 DRPM

vs

2020 Harden's defense - 1.18 DRPM
^
Why do people think AD was a better defender that year....clearly +/- stats say otherwise.

It’s pretty clear with your comments in this thread and then others that you have absolutely no idea what the data stands for so me reiterating it isn’t going to do much but I’ll try here.

You are stuck on the narrative that “LeBron hasn’t been a good defender in years“ when the data that accounts for every single play type, every single possession that he played, shows that in defending different types of actions from iso defense to post defense to closing out on shooters, he did extremely well including having the third best field goal differential between what he allowed to what those players shoot vs. everyone else in 2021. When you say that you’re posting a few stats that ignore context, the stats describe every single possession that he played. What’s more subjective — somebody’s memory about a certain narrative or statistics that cover every possession a player played?

When you talk about matchups and whom the player is defending, go and look up with the field-goal percentage of the players both LeBron and Kawhi defend it – they’re about the same. In any case, we’re talking about how much worse the opponent shot against LeBron or Kawhi. LeBron was holding the players he was defending, whoever they were, to far lower shooting percentages than Kawai was to the players whom he was defending.

The Lakers had elite Defenses in 2020 and 2021, defenses that were significantly better with LeBron on court.

As for you comments about AD and his effect on LeBron’s numbers:

2020 March 31st before the bubble:

LeBron On, AD off, 777 minutes: 113.5 ORtg, 103.0 DRtg, +10.3 [DRtg equivalent to 2nd best in the NBA], points differential equivalent to an all-time teams’.

AD ON, LeBron off, 572 minutes: 111.9 ORtg, 114.4 DRtg, -2.5 [DRtg equivalent to 28th in the NBA], points differential like that of a lottery team.

LeBron seem to be doing really well defensively with a AD on the bench or unavailable.

2020 Lakers’ DRtg when player is on court:

THT: 111.2
Rondo: 107.3
KCP: 107.2
AD: 106.4
Howard: 106.4
Green: 106.0
McGee: 105.7
Kuzma: 105.2
Dion: 105.0
Bradley: 104.0
Morris: 103.4
Daniels: 102.7
Cook: 102.5
Caruso: 101.0
Dudley: 98.4

DRtgs for LeBron Pairs:

James + Cook: 90.8 (11.7 better with LeBron)
James + Rondo: 100.1 (7.2 better with LeBron)
James + Caruso: 95.1 (5.9 better with LeBron)
James + Kuzma: 99.8 (5.4 better with LeBron)
James + Davis: 103.2 (3.2 better with LeBron)
James + KCP: 104.2 (3.0 better with LeBron)
James + Howard: 104.5 (1.9 better with LeBron)
James + Green: 104.7 (1.3 better with LeBron)
James + Bradley: 103.1 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + Morris: 102.5 (.9 better with LeBron)
James + McGee: 105.2 (.7 better with LeBron)
James + Daniels: 102.6 (.1 better with LeBron)
James + Dudley: 102.1 (3.7 worse with LeBron)

No, you're projecting, to protect your preconceived notion.

First, I never said “LeBron hasn’t been a good defender in years“, so don't use quotation marks like I did. I said, "Lebron hasn't been a great defender in years". Lebron was a good defender, but not great. And not better than Kawhi was in 2019. Again, Kawhi was taking the tough assignments. Lebron wasn't. So you cna look at those stats in a vacuum and project your preconceived notion, but Kawhi was the better defender. We really don't have reliable defensive numbers to even begin with. And to look at Synergy and extrapolate that, Oh player A must be better is silly. Synergy results have bene dubious for years.

As for the DRtgs you posted.....Ask yourself which combo is better defensively in 2020, Lebron/Kuzma or Lebron/Ad? Then ask yourself why you're using those numbers in this way.

[JordansBulls]

Truth be told he didn't become a good defender until after the redeem team when he played with Kobe. Before that he had won bronze medals as well and that time he won gold as well as the next olympic team with Kobe on it.

[falcolombardi]

Truth be told he didn't become a good defender until after the redeem team when he played with Kobe. Before that he had won bronze medals as well and that time he won gold as well as the next olympic team with Kobe on it.

Lmao, i chuckled lol

[JordansBulls]

Truth be told he didn't become a good defender until after the redeem team when he played with Kobe. Before that he had won bronze medals as well and that time he won gold as well as the next olympic team with Kobe on it.

Lmao, i chuckled lol

Life is hard, I want people to laugh and enjoy it. But Lebron didn't start making all defensive teams until after that moment.

[Jaivl]

Truth be told he didn't become a good defender until after the redeem team when he played with Kobe. Before that he had won bronze medals as well and that time he won gold as well as the next olympic team with Kobe on it.

Lmao, i chuckled lol

Life is hard, I want people to laugh and enjoy it. But Lebron didn't start making all defensive teams until after that moment.

LeBron didn't start making all-defensive teams until the Thunder were created.

[VanWest82]

Not in 07. We don't have his defensive on/offs for that year but we do in 08 where he was DFL on the team with 102 OFF DRTG. He was already a great offensive player but the lightbulb didn't totally go on for him until after that Olympic experience. Verajao and Snow were the defensive studs on that 07 Cavs team.

Poster A: those stats don't mean much without context. What about things like volume and who they were guarding? One guy was guarding 1st and 2nd options while the other guy was guarding 3rd-5th options.

Poster B: well that doesn't matter because the opposing players' FG% was about the same.



And how is it possible that we're still pushing this narrative that Lebron was the real anchor of the 2020 Lakers defense? The reason his numbers looked great is because he got to play with AD in the starting line up and then with Dwight and Caruso on the bench line ups. Remove those defensively talented back up supporting casts and you get results like last year where Bron had the worst net defensive on/off differential of any of the core Lakers.

To be clear, I don't believe Lebron has ever been anything less than a good defender though there were times in 2018 when he was bad because that Cavs team needed him to do so much on offense, but some of the stats presented itt badly misrepresent his impact on that end of the court.

Edit: if Dwight and Caruso hadn't been so good and confused voters with AD's defensive OFF numbers, I firmly believe AD would've won DPOY over Giannis. He was truly special that year.