Kobe/Curry scoring efficiency in the Finals

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Re: Kobe/Curry scoring efficiency in the Finals 

Post#61 » by An Unbiased Fan » Sun Aug 28, 2022 8:37 pm

AEnigma wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:That team had no business beating the Spurs or Minny, and the GP/Malone didn't give much.

This might be the single most concise encapsulation of the Kobe cult.

“Kobe only had prime Shaq and old Malone. Tim Duncan had young Parker and Manu (playing 29 minutes a game). Kevin Garnett had Wally Szcerbiak and old Latrell Sprewell. And then against Tayshaun Prince? What was the “greatest player of his generation” supposed to do, not get tunnel vision and jack terrible shots?????”

Weird how much better a job sophomore Wade did one year later with a slightly lesser version of Shaq. Ah, but he had Udonis Haslem! Living the easy life. :noway:

Huh? If anything I was praising the Spurs and Minny in 2004, how is that being part of a Kobe cult??

04 Spurs - 7.51 SRS
04 Minny - 5.86 SRS
04 Lakers - 4.35 SRS

Like I was pointing out the 04 Lakers had no business making it to the Finals. LA was on the road versus both teams, and on top of that Kobe was dealing with the CO trial. Had SA won, they would have had a legit shot at their own threepeat.

Nevermind your strawman arguments I would never make. What does Wade have to do with this? lol
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Re: Kobe/Curry scoring efficiency in the Finals 

Post#62 » by AEnigma » Sun Aug 28, 2022 9:16 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
AEnigma wrote:
An Unbiased Fan wrote:That team had no business beating the Spurs or Minny, and the GP/Malone didn't give much.

This might be the single most concise encapsulation of the Kobe cult.

“Kobe only had prime Shaq and old Malone. Tim Duncan had young Parker and Manu (playing 29 minutes a game). Kevin Garnett had Wally Szcerbiak and old Latrell Sprewell. And then against Tayshaun Prince? What was the “greatest player of his generation” supposed to do, not get tunnel vision and jack terrible shots?????”

Weird how much better a job sophomore Wade did one year later with a slightly lesser version of Shaq. Ah, but he had Udonis Haslem! Living the easy life. :noway:

Huh? If anything I was praising the Spurs and Minny in 2004, how is that being part of a Kobe cult??

Because you are pretty obviously only interested in doing so to the extent it helps gas Kobe in one of his worst years.

04 Spurs - 7.51 SRS
04 Minny - 5.86 SRS
04 Lakers - 4.35 SRS

Like I was pointing out the 04 Lakers had no business making it to the Finals. LA was on the road versus both teams,

1. Minnesota was essentially missing their second best player in that series. No need to mention that though, right. The Lakers were on the road! Gosh, such incredible adversity yet again overcome by our saviour Kobe.

2. Kobe and Shaq both missed a quarter of the season, and Malone missed half the season. When those three played together they were +12, and Shaq and Kobe without Malone were still +9. But we should ignore all that because it is much easier to paint a woe is me narrative for Kobe if we just look at acontextualised SRS.

and on top of that Kobe was dealing with the CO trial.

How exactly do you feel that impacted his playoffs.

Nevermind your strawman arguments I would never make. What does Wade have to do with this? lol

You are talking as if anyone in Kobe’s position would struggle when we saw another shooting guard with the same star teammate against the same team led by the same coach struggle significantly less. Same is also true to an even greater extent for Manu one year later. Why were those two not utterly shut down by Tayshaun.
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Re: Kobe/Curry scoring efficiency in the Finals 

Post#63 » by tsherkin » Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:47 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:Shaq shot 63% because he only took shots 5 feet from the backet at that point,


Yes, because that was sensible and played to his strengths. Did you want him to shoot 3s? That was never part of his game. Shaq did what he was supposed to do. Aside from make free throws, of course, because 49.1% FT was abysmal even by his standards.

Kobe had challenges in that series. Detroit had both strong interior defense and good perimeter defense. Kobe was never the same as Michael in terms of his mid-range shot-making ability, nor in his ability to hit his shots against double- and triple-coverage. That's... a high bar to set, of course, since Jordan was arguably the best we've ever seen at any point in the league at this.

But also, Detroit didn't have to respect the rest of the Lakers, which does touch your point about other Lakers not hitting double figures. Fisher was horrendous, 5/20 from under the arc (6/16 from 3, which is fine). Devean George sucked, though that's sort of what he did on the regular. Payton was an oxygen thief in that series, though everyone expected that because he had no jumper to speak of. Malone missed a game and was otherwise injured, which really hurt LA's overall offensive profile, and obviously did nothing to help Kobe in terms of alleviating defensive pressure. And then what? Medvedenko and Kareem Rush?

So it wasn't exactly a friendly offensive environment. Yes, Kobe sucked, but it's not like even Jordan didn't see notable reductions in his FG% against strong defenses in slow-paced environments. The 2004 Finals were played at 83.4 possessions per game, which is around the tempo of the 96-98 FInals (83.5, 84.0 and 82.0 poss/g), which were not super-great for even MJ's efficiency. 97 Heat (MJ at 47.5% TS and 38.7% FG), 92 Knicks (Jordan at 53.9% TS after 57.9% in the RS), it's not like other high-end stars didn't have hard times against good defenses, particularly at slow tempos. We've seen in the last decade and a half how Boston has been able to affect not just Kobe, but Lebron and KD, right? It takes a LOT to be a very good individual scorer against a team that is geared up specifically to stop a particular star, and raw TS% becomes only so appropriate in such contexts.

Shaq did well with what he was given. As a post big, he had to rely on his perimeter guys to enter the ball. Kobe was bad about that in that series, as he frequently was when he was struggling, but that wasn't really the reason they lost the series. Detroit's defense did as good a job as it gets at limiting Shaq's touches, he was just... Shaq, so he did well when he got the ball. But there's a limit to what a post guy with no J can do when you can't get him the ball. Particularly when he's leaving lots of points on the board at the foul line. Lebron did a little better than Kobe against those Pistons in 2006, but he didn't have a world-busting series against them either, despite being one of the more impressive athletic freaks in NBA history. He got through them in 2007, but he still wasn't any kind of all-world against them. Good enough, which given his team context and the quality of their defense, was just fine. Kind of like Kobe in the 2010 Finals against Boston, to be honest: a performance commensurate with the quality of the opponent.
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Re: Kobe/Curry scoring efficiency in the Finals 

Post#64 » by iggymcfrack » Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:04 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
What’s the excuse in ‘04 when Shaq was shooting 63% from the field and Kobe was shooting 38% and Kobe still wouldn’t pass?

Shaq shot 63% because he only took shots 5 feet from the backet at that point, and Detroit's frontcourt was great at not letting him get position. For the first four games, no players other than Kobe/Shaq cored in double figures. That team had no business beating the Spurs or Minny, and the GP/Malone didn't give much.


Shaq was dominant. When Kobe got him the ball, he destroyed the defense. It’s just that it was peak Shaq/Kobe feud and Kobe didn’t want to give him the opportunity to be the hero. If he wasn’t getting the glory, he’d just as soon lose.

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